Sinful Glare…who’s Fault?

[Noor]

:sl:

In institutions outside the comfort of a home, male and female interaction is contact which every Muslim finds difficulty overcoming. Sparked by comments made in the ‘What school/college do you go to?’ I decided to start this thread for the purpose of clarification concerning approach/feelings offered by members of the opposite gender.

The predicament? Let’s use the presence/interaction of males and females attending school in a non-Muslim environment. People from all walks of life go to such institutions as do many Muslim youth/adults. We are bound to confront issues which challenge our faith such as dress code and relations between the sexes.

Now, brothers and sisters, here is what’s most important. Who is more at fault? The one who wears clothing that can be described as scandalous? Or, are the stares of immoral eyes more damaging?

Salaam.
Well maybe if bits were not being shown off, men would easier to be able to lower their gaze a little. Don't use it as a hit-back, you got to cover up. Regardless whether anyone looks at you or not.

Besides that, whether a girl (muslim or non) is not covered up, all that's ur business is to lower ur gaze and make dua for her guidance, but instead u all choose to stare at her and then comment. If you are able to give out a detailed comment, then brothers uve been staring too long.

So, some of you may say, what’s the point to this thread?…obviously is a collective action that is destroying our souls and schools, what are you getting at? To those of you who are thinking this way, I dare to allow your mind to think critically.

it's not only the clothes, the way they talk and act with guys, and while guys walk by them they sure as hell don't lower their gaze.

Must we allow this type of thinking to further occur?


:w:

[Lateralus63]

:sl:

If i spill some water, was it my fault for spilling it was it the person who put it in that place at fault? Obvious answer really..

People are always going to find some way to shift the blame off themselves to make the crime more easier to perpetrate or to regain their pride after shame. The blame lies only on the person who causes the crime.

[- Qatada -]

:wasalamex


I think the whole idea is like pieces of wood and a spark of fire. The men are the pieces of wood & the females who dress up like that are the spark of the fire.


So if a guys walking down the street, he won't get affected in any way and may not get distracted by anything too much while minding his own business.

But as soon as he sees a woman dressed up in a way that will cause fitnah - the wood that had no affect in the beginning lights up with that little spark, the more he stares - the greater the fitnah level increases.

The spark grows into a flame, which increases the longer he stares. The bigger the flame - the harder it is to control the fire, as the heat and size of the fire increases the more dangerous the flame becomes, its harder to control now and the more likely it will have drastic affects...


The fire reaches its climax, and it attacks whatever is near it.. He attacks the woman and she cant extinguish the flame, its too late...











To prevent that flame from burning or even lighting up, use the simplest of methods:

"Do not allow your first glance to be followed by your second, because the first glance is permitted for you but the second is not". (Abu Dawud & Tirmidhi)




:salamext:

[*charisma*]

Assalamu Alaikum

If i spill some water, was it my fault for spilling it was it the person who put it in that place at fault? Obvious answer really..

People are always going to find some way to shift the blame off themselves to make the crime more easier to perpetrate or to regain their pride after shame. The blame lies only on the person who causes the crime.

Using water as a metaphor for the issue of interaction in institutions is weak nonetheless. Do you ever think that the males have an influence in how the females dress?? Or how about that some of these women arent even Muslimahs, so technically you cant blame your sinning for them dressing immodestly?

When a man acts noble and modest, most women will not try to solicit him or tempt him because these women respect him

Whether someone is blamed or not, the crime still exists in the face of Allah and if someone tries to gain pride *arrogance* from their shameful acts, they have just sinned again.

"Do not allow your first glance to be followed by your second, because the first glance is permitted for you but the second is not". (Abu Dawud & Tirmidhi)

Jazak Allah khair ekhi fi sabilillah for that, an excellent example!

Fi aman Allah
w'salaam

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[abdulhaqqibnluv]

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Unfortunately this is a problem that is of increasing occurance here in the west and even in the muslim world. Muslim men and women are greatly lacking that the important branch of eeman called haya. We as muslim men and women should cover ourselves properly and dress modestly. We should follow the shariah in our dress. And then after that we should lower our gazes. THe prophet sallahu alayhi wa salaam said, for us to lower our gazes. If we do not then that is a sin. But as has been previously mentioned its harder to lower the gaze when one sees something that attracks you and intices you. So we should strive to keep out of situations where we will be inticed by members of the opposite sex other than our spouses. I also advise the youth to marry for it helps to lower the gaze and protects the private parts from that which is impermissible. JazakALlahu khair

[Halima]

:sl:


I dont see it as being the man or the woman's fault as such. Everyone is accountable on behalf of their desires. In the Quran it doesnt speculate over which should do more of such. In the Quran it is specifically inscribed that BOTH men and women are entitled to both lower their gaze. Believe it or not women are just as tempted as men to look at opposite sex. No lie. This is human nature. We all have urges and drives but in Islam we are taught how to control it and when it is permissable to unleash that desire at the right place, the right time. In the Quran it may seem that it strongly empahsizes that women are to be covered just as men, but yet Islam itself doesnt allow men to wear shorts do they? Islam does allow men to walk only in underwear walking down th run way now does it? Of course not. Both men and women are in harmony to both play their part in the name of modesty.

• Allah says: “Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty. That will make for greater purity for them, and Allah is acquainted with all that they do. And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty…” [Sûrah al-Nûr: 30-31]

[Takumi]

:sl:

In the Quran it may seem that it strongly empahsizes that women are to be covered just as men, but yet Islam itself doesnt allow men to wear shorts do they? Islam does allow men to walk only in underwear walking down th run way now does it? Of course not. Both men and women are in harmony to both play their part in the name of modesty.

You might want to check Al Muwatta for the permissibility of the Maliki Fiqh for men wearing shorts.

Thanks.

[imaan49]

asalaamu alaikum

i voted for scandalous dressers, but in my opinion both parties are at equal fault

[Halima]

You might want to check Al Muwatta for the permissibility of the Maliki Fiqh for men wearing shorts.

Thanks.

Thank you for the suggestion.

However I think there is a gray area here. Since most shorts come above the knee then right off the bat violates the man's dress code. Hence what is the man's dress code? The man's dress code is from the navel to knee. So when he is standing that will expose his lower thigh and that is not sufficent enough to cover his knees. Till this day I have not seen shorts that are made to the knees...lol Or have you seen it?

[Takumi]

There are several scenarios that I've seen.

(1) Some hijaabis just drool over the shaykh after he finishes his lecture. I didn't see them lowering down their gaze. Maybe asking question is permissible. So, it's the shaykh's fault? Or maybe some hijaabi's were droolling over Hamza Yusuf asking him to sign his book.

[I saw those hijaabi because they went down from their seats at the back to meet the shaykh. In front of everyone.:D]

(2) Some muslim men talk freely with the lady cashiers at Wal Mart but when he speaks to a hijaabi, he lowers down his gaze. You see this a lot at some masajid.

(3) Many women just stared at those nasheed artists while they are performing their songs.

Let us see the athaar [collection of the stories of sahabah] regarding Hanzalah.

Hadeeth Twenty Four - A Time for this and a Time for that

From Hanzalah al-Usayyidee (who said):
Aboo Bakr met me and asked: "How are you O Hanzalah?" I replied: "Hanzalah is guilty of hypocrisy!" He said: "Free is Allaah and far removed from all defects! What are you sayings". I said: "When we are with Allaah’s Messenger and he reminds us of the Fire and Paradise it is as if we are seeing it with our own eyes. Then when we depart from Allaah’s Messenger and attend to our wives, our children and our business, then much of this slips from our minds". Aboo Bakr said: "By Allaah we also experience the same". So I went with Aboo Bakr until we entered upon Allaah’s Messenger. I said: "Hanzalah is guilty of hypocrisy O Messenger of Allaah!". So Allaah’s Messenger said: "And how is that?" I said: "When we are with you, you remind us of the Fire and of Paradise and it is as if we are seeing it with our eyes. Then when we depart from you and attend to our wives, children and business then much of this slips from our minds". So Allaah’s Messenger said: "By Him in whose Hand is my soul if you remained continually as you are when you are with me and in remembering (Allaah) then the angels would shake hands with you upon your beds and upon your roads. But O Hanzalah, (there is) a time for this and a time for that, (there is) a time for this and a time for that, (there is) a time for this and a time for that"

Reported by Muslim (Eng.Trans.) vol.4, p.l436, no.6623

What's this gotta do with this thread, everything. Let us see what Allah talks about taqwa.

So fear Allah as much as you can; listen and obey and spend in charity for the benefit of your own soul and those saved from the covetousness of their own souls. They are the ones that achieve prosperity.

At Taghabun 16.

Lowering down the gaze is a command of Allah. It deals with taqwa [the mindfulness of Allah].

If you can be muttaqi 24/7, good for you, but please refer to the hadeeth above if you can't.

If not, console your heart and listen to what Allah says in At Taghabun.

And when you commit the sin, repent and then look at how Allah consoles you:

Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! DO NOT DESPAIR of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives ALL SINS: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful". Now lest we become confused again into thinking we can do whatever we want without reckoning, Allah says next: "So Turn to our Lord (in repentance) and submit to Him, before the Penalty comes on you, then you cannot be helped." (39:53-54)

No one's at fault. You do the crime, you do the time. :)

Hey mod Fi Sabilillah! I got some hadeeth and translation here! :p. Aren't you proud of me?

[oh no! do I sound love to hear my voice, again?]

[Takumi]

Thank you for the suggestion.

However I think there is a gray area here. Since most shorts come above the knee then right off the bat violates the man's dress code. Hence what is the man's dress code? The man's dress code is from the navel to knee. So when he is standing that will expose his lower thigh and that is not sufficent enough to cover his knees. Till this day I have not seen shorts that are made to the knees...lol Or have you seen it?

Yeah, the professional tennis player Rafael Nadal from Spain wears those pants. He calls them "pirates".

[Halima]

There are several scenarios that I've seen.

(1) Some hijaabis just drool over the shaykh after he finishes his lecture. I didn't see them lowering down their gaze. Maybe asking question is permissible. So, it's the shaykh's fault? Or maybe some hijaabi's were droolling over Hamza Yusuf asking him to sign his book.

[I saw those hijaabi because they went down from their seats at the back to meet the shaykh. In front of everyone.:D]

(2) Some muslim men talk freely with the lady cashiers at Wal Mart but when he speaks to a hijaabi, he lowers down his gaze. You see this a lot at some masajid.

(3) Many women just stared at those nasheed artists while they are performing their songs.

First and foremost,

Please don't tell me you are taking this from a man's perspective (as always very common for a man to take it from his own perspective) *not thinking out of the box* Anyways, The majority of the scenarios were practially about the 'woman not lowering her gaze'. After Allah(swt) has strongly emphasized for us not to be dressing in a trash manner how did all of a sudden switch to our so called weakness of not lowering the gaze? So are you meaning to tell me that women cannot only dress modestly but they cannot lower their gaze aswell? Strange phenomenon. I will not deny the fact that women do those things because that is human nature. Like I said before we all have strong urges and desires that arouse us inside whenever we look at someone of the opposite sex that may attract us. Thats everyone inculded. Men, women, teenagers, old people adults when I say everyone I mean everyone. Your little observation is merely a third of all muslim women. If women do this so much why has Allah inscribed in the Quran that we have to cover from head to toe? If we women are so weak and fragile inside why hasn't Allah directed for the men to dress in complete attire? When men see a woman's arwah they go crazy and here you are just talking about the women drooling. Men have stronger desires then women but yet we are still expected to follow the same rules to lower the gaze both men and women. It's about time you have posted a hadith to prove your point. Allahu Ahkbar.

[Takumi]

First and foremost,

Please don't tell me you are taking this from a man's perspective (as always very common for a man to take it from his own perspective) *not thinking out of the box* Anyways, The majority of the scenarios were practially about the 'woman not lowering her gaze'. After Allah(swt) has strongly emphasized for us not to be dressing in a trash manner how did all of a sudden switch to our so called weakness of not lowering the gaze? So are you meaning to tell me that women cannot only dress modestly but they cannot lower their gaze aswell? Strange phenomenon. I will not deny the fact that women do those things because that is human nature. Like I said before we all have strong urges and desires that arouse us inside whenever we look at someone of the opposite sex that may attract us. Thats everyone inculded. Men, women, teenagers, old people adults when I say everyone I mean everyone. Your little observation is merely a third of all muslim women. If women do this so much why has Allah inscribed in the Quran that we have to cover from head to toe? If we women are so weak and fragile inside why hasn't Allah directed for the men to dress in complete attire? When men see a woman's arwah they go crazy and here you are just talking about the women drooling. Men have stronger desires then women but yet we are still expected to follow the same rules to lower the gaze both men and women. It's about time you have posted a hadith to prove your point. Allahu Ahkbar.

Peace be upon you Moderator Halima,

You were not there, were you? So, don't criticize how I write my views, criticize the issue. It's not in your jurisdiction, if I may say so. Thanks.

The issue was epitomized succintly, if I might say, you do the crime, you do the time. Those little observations were there as a preamble to my post. It's not the main content, okay?

Now, if you wish to criticize the way I designed my post, by all means. But, don't assume anything about what I think. [re:So are you meaning to tell me that women cannot only dress modestly but they cannot lower their gaze aswell?

If I had chosen the word drooling to illustrate my point about men, will you be writing the post above? I write and I use adjectives to desribe what I saw, if you believe such adjectives were inappropriately used, say so. I'd be more than willing to accept your alternatives. :)

I'm not talking about only women, I also posted a scenario about men. Whatever I chose to use to describe it, it's MY choice, right?

Okay, fine, would it have made a difference if I had posted another scenario for men, so that we have 2 scenarios for men and 2 scenarios for women? :D

(4) Drooling men watching TV and those commercials.

[guys, be sensible okay, this is only an observation. You should know that not all men are like that, right? :p]

What is your substance here? The way I wrote my post or the content of my post?

You're right that men and women have to lower down their gaze, did I mention anywhere in my post that they don't have to? In fact, I didn't even generalize any gender. Now, the burden of proof is on you.

I'm not obligated to post any hadeeth to prove my point. My point was clear and it was supported by the requirement of this forum:

You do the sin, you repent. I did not specify any gender, did I? :)

[Z]

Salaam.

So like men are to blame, and not the women? Get out of here Noor, you can't be serious.

The eyes take in everything. No denying it. If something catches them, they may gaze for longer. The idea that the second intentional look is Haraam, says something. Ofcourse, I'm not making any excuses, or shifting the blame onto the other side like some. The real world is just a little different.

[Noor]

Salaam.

So like men are to blame, and not the women? Get out of here Noor, you can't be serious.The eyes take in everything. No denying it. If something catches them, they may gaze for longer. The idea that the second intentional look is Haraam, says something. Ofcourse, I'm not making any excuses, or shifting the blame onto the other side like some. The real world is just a little different.

:sl:

Z, my friend, you are right. Of course the fat man wont be able to resist the burger, but is it the burgers' fault?

I suggest that man to think heavily about the consequences concerning his problem with eating fattening foods that damage his health. Instead he should refrain from such foods by surrounding himself with people who consume healthy rations and so forth.

The problem, dear brother, lies with the fat man, not the burger.

---

:w:

[imaan49]

:sl:

Z, my friend, you are right. Of course the fat man wont be able to resist the burger, but is it the burgers' fault?

looool, interesting choice of words

[Z]

Salaam.

I think you're not getting it. Both parties are to blame. Get out. Live in the real world. It isn't ideal for you I know, I'm so sorry.

I guess you're only trying to say it's ok for women to dress how they want, because us men need to have our eyes down at all times. Yeah, guess that's just your point. Gee.

[BlissfullyJaded]

:sl:

I'd have to say both sides are to blame..

[Noor]

:sl:

Really?...I think you're not getting it. See, blameworthy is especially sensitive to each case. That is one part of the issue but not the centre.

I believe that, brothers' who so easily chat up with non Muslim girls and have a problem when one of their sisters is struggling in her deen/haya and quickly point the demeaning finger at her is the root cause.

Do you deny that males can be and are very influential?

[Z]

Salaam.

With a cool head ... can I just ask what exactly is the point you are trying to make? I would like to agree with you.

[Noor]

Although the word fault can be mistaken for blame, my goal was not to point out who is to blame...rather, the target of this thread is to realize that one party has more responsibility.

Tu comprend?

[Z]

Salaam.

So let me get this straight. God said that one of these two has to really obey Him, and take more responsibility.

The man who should lower his gaze, and the woman who should dress properly. You're trying to say that God's command here is more over the man. Right?

Wait now let me guess. That's not right. God gave both man and woman equal responsibility ofcourse. He must've. God is fair. Now men think women need to stop dressing like that. Women think men need to keep their eyes lowered.

It's an equal responsibility. Both parties need to do their part. Women are disobeying God directly if they don't cover up. A man will be disobeying God if he gives the woman a second glance. If the woman is dressed properly, there would be no second glance.

By the way, you do know BigMac had some cases filed against them for making some people fat? I blame the burger makers. You can blame the fat guy. Enough said.

[Safa]

Assalamu alaikum,

I believe Noor is trying to point out the problems in society and that somehow men are at fault in how they deal with non-Muslim women.

It doesn't mean that she's being biased. She's just presenting one side of an argument.

And Allah ordered both men and women to lower their gazes and dress appropriately, how often do people take heed to both?

Wa 'alaikum salam.

[Noor]

Salaam.
So let me get this straight. God said that one of these two has to really obey Him, and take more responsibility. The man who should lower his gaze, and the woman who should dress properly. You're trying to say that God's command here is more over the man. Right?

I don't know the heck you just said brother Z^^^, but what I can tell you is this.

WaAlaikumSalaam

Many times, brothers without any effort have no problem in finding the weakness in the female character. What I'm challenging you to think about is that, are these brothers entitled to piont fingers at their sisters immoral acts and at the same time, act in the same manner they are condemming with other females?

The actions of the male is more signficant than those of the opposite gender. And the very fact that most of the brothers adapt to the 'hey, why is she dressing like that?' attitude speaks mountains.

[Z]

Salaam.

I totally get what you/she is trying to say.

I guess both side of the arguments have been said in my edited previous post. Both parties are to blame. Both need to do their parts. Men need to stop pointing their fingers at women. Women need to stop making topics like these.

I need my coffee, it's A.M.

[afriend]

It's both really!

I just hope I can keep my gaze down for long enough....

[salehah]

Salam everyone!
Everyone's responsible for their own acts and are going to deserve what they did..it's not going to be who's fault was first ..remember it could be our test.
Allah SWT even send some angles with bad reputations to test the nations don't we all know!!
wasalam

..and anyways it's not just guys who look!!
thats why Allah SWT told both men and women to lower their gazes

Surah Noor verses 30 and 31.

"Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do. "
"And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty..."
mind you the only surah in the beginning of which Allah SWT himself said that ayaats of this surah are being made fard on you!!
thanks!

[Far7an]

:sl:

The poll won't let me vote for both, oh well.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
Noor, you should visit regent college. As my friend likes to say: "there has been a 75% increase in fitnah in this college" - he would then add an additional 5% every week :).

Seriously, it is both - you can't just blame the male nor can you blame the sister. take me for example. At any one time in college, i only sit with males. Only on 2 occasions did I ever sit with a female (1 on each occasion) and that was because they sat down next to me. Got it?
And one time, i was asked to sit next to one of them, well she was asking for help in accounts - damsel in distress an all ;D

I have you know, the only thing, THE ONLY thing I have ever talked to any of those females that i sat next to/with was college work and it was usually them asking moi, not other way around.

However, I see many muslim girls free-mixing - and I mean free-mixing: heavily envoled with members of opposite sex - but i'm not one to judge - they could very well be a better muslim at home than I am or whatever. Oh did i forget to mention that a large amount of muslim females, including the ones that i mentioned only wear hijab at ramadhan?

Yes I agree with the sinful glare, but if one doesn't dress like a slag, one won't be seen as a slag. IT's a two-way thing.

I also agree with Z.

[aljawaad]

Yeah i agree with you bro.
I agree that we should lower our gaze but sometimes its really difficult. Sahytwan is constantly around to mislead us. Moreover there are those females who dress themselves as if its making 50 degrees outside; thus they are helping shaytwan and hence in a way forces us to stare at them.
Now you see we must blame both males and females. TO prevent this fitnah both sexes should help; males lowering their gaze and females dressing themselves properly.
Along with that, we must also pray to God to protect us from this fitnah.
It should be noted that's its not jus up to the muslimah to dress properly but also the Kaafirs; they can't just walk around dressed like this coz this has an adverse effect on many people. If this was the case they could just have walked around everywhere nude. That's why nowadays the rate of rapes is increasing. Its these type of women that are making rapists and murderers out of men.

May Allah protect us from them.

[swanlake]

:sl:

Everyone is responsible for their OWN actions. We shouldnt be blaming others for our weakness.

I had a neighbour who looked down everytime a woman passes or even if i am talking to him.

[aljawaad]

May Allah instill these qualities in me and every muslims

[MetSudaisTwice]

salam
ameen
wasalam

[Khaldun]

:sl:

Members are reminded to avoid off-topic posting, and this wont be tolerated and the posts will be deleted

[Silver Pearl]

Wa alaykum salam warahmatullahi wabarakatuh,

I’m shocked to find that the Ummah are debating and arguing about such a topic that clearly has a marked answer (yes it is that simple).

Don’t get me wrong sister Noor and think I’m attacking you as the thread starter. For the thread to spread like a bad rash in a matter of 17 hours worries me. Why? Let me illustrate few points.

Look at the beneficial posts and see the number of replies they get. I try my best to avoid replying most of the time to any given topic, I prefer reading. However, doesn’t this reflect the Ummah and what they place their priorities in?



Anyways, what it is evidently clear is that it is men’s fault, why are you looking at the opposite sex long enough to notice that she has flesh exposed. Or that her skirt is short enough that if a 5 year old attempted to wear it, it’d probably not fit them either.


Women are also to blame, it takes two. If she wasn’t dressed in a manner that attracts attention, or she wasn’t going ‘Oh my god’ and the top of her lungs and screeching, I mean giggling every time a guy walked past then you wouldn’t have a problem.

Yes there are cases that women wearing hijab and niqaab get looks, ‘sinful’ but it is usually to get you annoyed or ignorance. You can’t easily demolish ignorance and blaming it on one sex is just being plain naïve.

This is an issue that both men and women have to take responsibility of.


For those who blame men because of their sinful gazes, oh please. Did Allah (swt) say only to the believing men to lower their gaze? Quranic verses would prove you otherwise.


I don’t understand why people get heated up over such issue. Clearly it is both parties that are to blame, whether you try and justify it as much as you like.

Women should be careful and lower their gaze and men should lower their gaze.

ya rabb, ehdeena siratul mustakheem

[Noor]

:sl:
The poll won't let me vote for both, oh well.

^ now u can :)
Poll edited,
vote again !

:sl:


I cannot believe my thread has gone to this road that I did not want it to take. With all due respect, this is my thread, if any drastic changes were to occur, wouldn’t a pm to notify the thread starter be appropriate? For heavens, I did not want to add the feature to vote for both as there was a reason behind it. I hoped for everyone to read my introduction correctly and if they did not wish to part take in the way the thread was organized their in put was not required. As I said… “So, some of you may say, what’s the point to this thread?…obviously is a collective action that is destroying our souls and schools, what are you getting at? To those of you who are thinking this way, I dare to allow your mind to think critically.”

The option ‘both’ was not present, and I wish it not to be there. When I left the thread last night, I witnessed that there was three votes, one for each option. Now I come forth to my thread with this huge edit and abolition.

I want to congratulate those members that have decided to join this dialogue with me. Your input has been greatly appreciated.

:w:

[afriend]

........But the thing I don't understand is, it's SOOOOOOOOOOO BAAAAAAAAAADD when a guy does it to a girl, but it's ok wen a girl does it...that's soooooo unfair!!!! it shud b equal.....people make it sound as though the guys are the desperate ones who only look at the opposite gender........

:sl:


I cannot believe my thread has gone to this road that I did not want it to take. With all due respect, this is my thread, if any drastic changes were to occur, wouldn’t a pm to notify the thread started be appropriate? For heavens, I did not want to add the feature to vote for both as there was a reason behind it. I hoped for everyone to read my introduction correctly and if they did not wish to part take in the way the thread was organized their in put was not required. As I said… “So, some of you may say, what’s the point to this thread?…obviously is a collective action that is destroying our souls and schools, what are you getting at? To those of you who are thinking this way, I dare to allow your mind to think critically.”

The option ‘both’ was not present, and I wish it not to be there. When I left the thread last night, I witnessed that there was three votes, one for each option. Now I come forth to my thread with this huge edit and abolition.

I want to congratulate those members that have decided to join this dialogue with me. Your input has been greatly appreciated.

:w:

Now ur in trouble zAk......:giggling: :hiding:

Sister please don't take it so serious, I'm sure he will correct it, wont u zAk?

[Silver Pearl]

:sl:


I cannot believe my thread has gone to this road that I did not want it to take. With all due respect, this is my thread, if any drastic changes were to occur, wouldn’t a pm to notify the thread started be appropriate? For heavens, I did not want to add the feature to vote for both as there was a reason behind it. I hoped for everyone to read my introduction correctly and if they did not wish to part take in the way the thread was organized their in put was not required. As I said… “So, some of you may say, what’s the point to this thread?…obviously is a collective action that is destroying our souls and schools, what are you getting at? To those of you who are thinking this way, I dare to allow your mind to think critically.”

The option ‘both’ was not present, and I wish it not to be there. When I left the thread last night, I witnessed that there was three votes, one for each option. Now I come forth to my thread with this huge edit and abolition.

I want to congratulate those members that have decided to join this dialogue with me. Your input has been greatly appreciated.

:w:

Wa alaykum salam,

Sister how can you place judgement simply on one party?

We need to look at reality not play the blame game...The ummah has enough of those at this moment. what will we gain from it? let me see, a long lasting debate about women and men resulting in feminist uprising. Believe me when i say this, i have seen way too many of such issues. I don't mean to be critical, if i'm critical then i'm critical about myself too. So forgive me sister....forgive me.

The mods who did so was trying to do what they thought was best, i'm sure it was not done to annoy you in any manner, shape or form (Allahu'3llim).

This is a controversial topic and the topic will grow like a uncurable disease. If the option 'both' was not added i would hate to see the outcome of this thread.

This was a great questioned you raised but nothing is as simple as we may think. Nothing in this world is ever black or white and this topic is an example of that. How can anyone only blame men? or women? that is being naive, and ignorant. It is defying nature because women are not saints nor are men. So to try and simplify the issue would be ignoring the whole picture behind such topic.

Anyways contact the mods personally if you want to discuss the editing they made.

[Noor]

:sl:

Sister Silver Pearl, your attitude is stimulating and I congratulate you for your input.

It is important that members who decide to participate in this thread realize that this issue in itself that may seem to have an easy answer, may in fact have a root cause, which many of us haven’t realized. Yes, this Ummah is decimating, but what is more sickening than the activity of this thread compared to other threads which are more beneficial, is the preconceived notion and attitude that some of these members have towards this topic.

Scandalous dressers have not been given a gender by me, nor has the one with the sinister eyes. Now, for you all to conclude that one gender is that individual who is scandalously dressed is your opinion, not mine.

This is a forum. What I’m trying to do is have a dialogue with members to come to a conclusion of how we may battle this issue that is devastating our Ummah.

Let me remind myself and others what I mean when I say fault. Which individual is more liable when confronting issues involving interaction between opposite genders? What do you think is the root cause? ….and eventually in the end of this dialogue we can come to a conclusion and a solution.

I know some of you want me to get straight to the point but I would further enjoy some discussion, just so I and others can get an overview of how members view the issue.

:w:

[Silver Pearl]

Wa alaykum salam warahmatullahi wabarakatuh,

Can I firstly say phew, boy did I think I’d be roasted after my comments lol.

Alright let me see from what perspective you were getting and say why I wrote what I did.

Sister Silver Pearl, your attitude is stimulating and I congratulate you for your input.

:) thanks....And Mashallah for your efforts in trying to bring solution in one of the most controversial issues within the Ummah.

It is important that members who decide to participate in this thread realize that this issue in itself that may seem to have an easy answer, may in fact have a root cause, which many of us haven’t realized.

Yes you’re right; this does a have a root cause, our enemy, Shaytan. However, I don’t know if this is what you’re referring to.

Yes, this Ummah is decimating, but what is more sickening than the activity of this thread compared to other threads which are more beneficial, is the preconceived notion and attitude that some of these members have towards this topic.

I’ll try and illustrate why there is an assumption behind the choices you gave as options.

Scandalous dressers have not been given a gender by me, nor has the one with the sinister eyes. Now, for you all to conclude that one gender is that individual who is scandalously dressed is your opinion, not mine.

Guys are not looked upon because they wear a mini skirt or a low cut top. Nor do men lavish themselves with glittery clothing or flash around their flesh by exposing their private parts. Even during the summer majority of the men do not show their lower part, they only tend to wear either a vest or a t-shirt. So who else can it refer to? Women, unless there are other species that go around dressing in such manner.

As for the sinister eyes, you could say they were female too but then your choices would be biased and unfair so thus one can logically only conclude that it is referring to men. So even though you have tried to eliminate the attachment of genders to both options, subconsciously you have attached genders to each of them.

Furthermore, both options require to have a gender in order to get your point across thus one has to be in reference to women and the other to men. Therefore, it is not anyone’s fault for such assumption because there is a justification for concluding such thing. Correct me if I’m mistake sister.

What I’m trying to do is have a dialogue with members to come to a conclusion of how we may battle this issue that is devastating our Ummah.

I do understand what you’re getting at and inshallah the sooner we find a solution the better. Nonetheless when you try and see who is to blame, then that will not cause us to come to a solution, rather that attempt will come and bite us, shame really.

Which individual is more liable when confronting issues involving interaction between opposite genders?

Like I said earlier you can not just look at one individual. This isn’t one of those examples where you have an older brother/sister hitting his younger bro/sis coz they crushed into their bedroom. So already error occurs here.

What do you think is the root cause? …..

Shaytan, being unable to control our desires and not repenting frequently I believe.

[Z]

Salaam.

If we all end it here. I shall dress properly. I shall lower my gaze. I shall tell my friends the same. If they don't listen, I shall make better friends.

Stop arguing over something for the sake of it. It's almost as if you're showing off now. Quit it. Perv at a burger.

[Silver Pearl]

Salaam.


Stop arguing over something for the sake of it. It's almost as if you're showing off now. Quit it. Perv at a burger.

Wa alaykum salam,

Brother, no one is arguing for the sake of it, I’d rather play solitaire. If we hush our mouth and sit by the corner this issue won’t disappear. I suppose it is better to come to a solution than brush it under the carpet. If I came across as ‘showing off’ then I seek refugee in Allah (swt) from the sin that comes from arrogance and pride.

I just gave you a solution. Gee. Wait let me guess, you will go around each board on the internet creating this same thing till everyone gets it. How genius.

Perhaps you have not realised but i'm not the post starter.....

[Z]

Salaam.

I just gave you a solution. Gee. Wait let me guess, you will go around each board on the internet creating this same thing till everyone gets it. How genius.

Oh my, this burger is not well dressed.

[Muezzin]

Oh my, this burger is not well dressed.

The burger might not be well dressed, but its salad sure is!

*rimshot*

*crickets chirp*

And I voted 'Both' - blokes shouldn't stare and ladies shouldn't dress like that in the first place.

[Halima]

:sl:

Please for the sake of Allah(swt) let us just stick to the topic and learn from everyone else. We all have great views here and it would be foolish of us to atleast not consider the fact.


:w:

[Z]

Salaam.

Exactly. And women shouldn't stare, and men should try dress decent too.

[Lateralus63]

Assalamu Alaikum
Do you ever think that the males have an influence in how the females dress??

:sl:

Im a man myself. It really doesnt take much effort to walk on the street with your head on the floor. Or just buy a newspaper. Or a book. Most men just....idle around, dont lower their gaze. And then place the blame on scantily dressed women.

Lemme tell you something about placing the blame (scapegoating) Its only purpose is to make the action in question more justified.

Or how about that some of these women arent even Muslimahs, so technically you cant blame your sinning for them dressing immodestly?

Islam says, if you see the woman first, like accidentaly. Then you are under no sin. If you put ur head up to see her a second time willfully. Then you get the sin. So i think what you said is very dangerous, because men ARE to blame since islam has allowed this "first chance" as it were.

Again. Implying that women are to blame, means that men dont have a choice in not looking at women. I mean this is a very serious implication because we all know Allah (swt) does not burden a soul more than it can bear and he always gives choices.

[*charisma*]

Assalamu Alaikum

Islam says, if you see the woman first, like accidentaly. Then you are under no sin. If you put ur head up to see her a second time willfully. Then you get the sin. So i think what you said is very dangerous, because men ARE to blame since islam has allowed this "first chance" as it were.

Again. Implying that women are to blame, means that men dont have a choice in not looking at women. I mean this is a very serious implication because we all know Allah (swt) does not burden a soul more than it can bear and he always gives choices.

Jazak Allah khair for your reply, I'm not going to reply this thread yet fully until i am able to answer all points of the matter, and there are many points to address.

For example, When one looks at the opposite gender unintentionally as their first glance, would it be a sin for them to continue to gaze until they had their fill in that first glance??

We only have control over our own actions and the only way we can change someone else is if they admire our modesty and actions. If one were to gaze intentionally, they cannot put blame on the person they are staring at whatsoever, whether they are dressed modestly or not.

If a man had desires for young girls, can you blame the young girls?? not really. This also works vice versa, im not putting any blame on specific genders here, but rather the individuals themselves.

Inshallah ill prepare a full answer to this topic

Barak Allah feekum

fi aman Allah
w'salaam

[Noor]

Furthermore, both options require to have a gender in order to get your point across thus one has to be in reference to women and the other to men. Therefore, it is not anyone’s fault for such assumption because there is a justification for concluding such thing.

:sl:

I invite you to come to Canada where males dress to impress and females have their tongues hanging. Blameworthiness is truly sensitive to each case, as is the individual and the action. Maybe it is that we need to believe that it is neccessary to identify the gender to verify the action? Is this one of the issues in this dilemma.

Seriously, it is both - you can't just blame the male nor can you blame the sister.

Brother Aamirsaab,

Why is it the you refer to one as a gender (male in this case) and the other as someone close to you in nature (sister in this case) ?

(1) Some hijaabis just drool over the shaykh after he finishes his lecture. I didn't see them lowering down their gaze. Maybe asking question is permissible. So, it's the shaykh's fault? Or maybe some hijaabi's were droolling over Hamza Yusuf asking him to sign his book.

JazakAllah for bringing that up.

Thats it for now, need some sleep.

:w:

[samina1]

[S]subhanallah y must da shytaan have all da power over u guys right nw, plz read dua n say istigforiuallah, bcz its nt worth makin shytaan win his goalz..[/S]
ma salam
fiamaniallah

[Muezzin]

:sl:
Brother Aamirsaab,

Why is it the you refer to one as a gender (male in this case) and the other as someone close to you in nature (sister in this case) ?

It's that time of the month.

[hasib]

:sl:

both are at fault..

those who put themselves on display and those who see them..

reminds me of the hadith of rasool (saw) when he was with ayesha (ra) and a blind man walks in but ayesah (ra) hesitates to put hijab when rasool (saw) asks her why and she replies its because hes blind but he replies to ayesha (ra) are you blind? i.e. you can see him.. so go cover yourself!

:w:

[Lateralus63]

Assalamu Alaikum
For example, When one looks at the opposite gender unintentionally as their first glance, would it be a sin for them to continue to gaze until they had their fill in that first glance??
w'salaam

:sl:

*smile* ah i remember when my teacher went over that point. He made some good jokes (like constantly staring at the student who asked the same question you did lol !!) Anyway, a first gaze is just, you look, you quickly realise, and then you look down.

If someone keeps staring for a long period because he feels its his "first gaze" ....y3ani this goes against the whole hadith of Inamal 3amalo bin niyat to be honest.

[aamirsaab]

:
Brother Aamirsaab,

Why is it the you refer to one as a gender (male in this case) and the other as someone close to you in nature (sister in this case) ?
:w:

It wasn't intentional and doesn't contain hidden messages (all those who are analysing me on my posts can now stop :p). It's perfectly clear what I meant :).

In short, it's a typo.

[Halima]

:sl:

I think we have all come to the conclusion that indeed it isnt a specific sex that has more burden over the opposite sex. Both of us muslim women and men are requested to both dress modestly and act modest.

• Allah says: “Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty. That will make for greater purity for them, and Allah is acquainted with all that they do. And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty…” [Sûrah al-Nûr: 30-31]

Thread closed.