format_quote Originally Posted by
Spiritlead
Are you saying it is the Quran that is the source to prove the message of Islam? That is called circular reasoning or circular logic ! It is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with. It is reasoning that goes nowhere.
I didn't say that...that is your wishfull thinking. If you read my post carefully, I said:
In Islam, rules are basically there not just because Allah wants it that way...but it has a certain logic behind it.
Everything that is forbidden, is usually forbidden because it is harmfull in a certain way...either for the indiviual self physically or mentally...or for others, surroundings, nature or whatever.
Therefore, If God forbids us something...we immediately obey and believe, even though we do not know the background of it, but we do know that it is bad for us in a certain way.
You can still smoke if you want even though everyone strongly advices you not to...it is your life...but does that make your life more interesting?
to put it in an example:
an adult usually has more knowledge and experience then a child. So if a parent forbids a child something, (and we disregard that the parent can forbid something out of his own outcome), then there is some wisdom behind is...even when that wisdom is not yet explained.
If the child is wise, he has one of the two options:
either he is interested in the wisdom behind it and investigates the wisdom behind it and obeys the parent.
or
he is not interested in the wisdom behind it, but trusts the parent for his wisdom and obeys the parent.
if the child is not wise he will not obey the parent and face the consequences.
so the rules in the Quraan have a certain logic behind it. if you are interested in that, you can use scientific methods to investigate...but you do not have to.
format_quote Originally Posted by
Spiritlead
You wanted proof that its proven the Quran is not accurately preserved. In 1972 a large number of ancient Quranic manuscripts, dating from first century of Hijra were discovered in the Great Mosque of Sana’a (Yemen), which significantly differs from the present standard Quran. This is one, or is, the oldest Quran in existence. This shatters the orthodox Muslim belief that the Quran, as it has reached us today, is “the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God”.
this shatters nothing. People have been copying by hand from a copy from a copy from a copy of the Quraan...it is only natural that at one point small errors start to sneak into the text during that process...don't forget the copying process have been done by humans...and humans make mistakes. Uthman noticed this in time, collected all copies with deviations and burned them. This one I have no knowledge of. thanks for pointing it out I will try to find out the story behind this.
format_quote Originally Posted by
Spiritlead
You seem confused. The Torah IS actually the Bible (Old Testament).
I am not confused.
"The Bible" is actually a misleading term.
The Thorah is the book that has been revealed to Moses as. at a certain point in time all copies of it have been destroyed, and later on someone (I forgot the name and too lazy to look it up right now) restored it almost completely for as far as he could remember it. after that, it kapt unchanged. The Thorah is pretty pure nowadays, but unfortunately not for 100%.
The Bible is actually a collection of different books.
The gospels are a part of the Bible that has been revealed to Jesus as and it is pretty much the same as the Thorah (old testament)
The new testament part of the Bible are written by people who (you call those "inspired by God") have known, seen, heard Jesus as in his lifetime and reported their observations. human made texts and only partially reliable and true...we Muslims would call those texts "the Ahadeeth of Jesus as"...
But because you Christians shifted Jesus to a God-position...those normal ordinairy people are automatically shifted in a "prophet position" (or in your terms "inspired by God", because Jesus = God) and their text therefore are sacred and part of the Bible.
If the ahadeeth of Muhammad sas was a part of the Quraan, then the Quraan would not be reliable either.
format_quote Originally Posted by
Spiritlead
Being able to read the Bible in ones own / or multiple languages actually increases ones understanding of scriptures. In regards to multiple translations, this actually increases the reliability of correct understanding of scripture due to different perspectives on the same scripture. However we are all free to read the Bible in the original languages of Greek and Hebrew.
You are confusing stuff.
The Quraan is NOT forbidden to translate...you are free to read a translation of the Quraan in any version and language you like FOR STUDYING PURPOSES. if you want to know the meaning of a verse you may read the translation of it...one thing to keep in mind is that that translated copy of the Quraan can no longer be called the Quraan...it is just a book and does not have the same status.
The five daily prayers and other forms of salaat must be made in original language Arabic...all other prayers (duaa) the way Christians understand the word "prayer" can be made in any language, everywhere and in any state and condition.
Me too read the Quraan in as many different languages and versions to have a better understanding of it...I even use tafsirs...but on top of that...I have the original Quraan in original language.
format_quote Originally Posted by
Spiritlead
What about you? Do you read the Quran in Classical Arabic? Because most Muslims do not speak classical Arabic. So why the clumsy requirement to read something in a language you don’t even understand ?
read above. to have a reference. to always having the option to fall back to the original. other translations have the tendency of drifting away from each other in time...but when you always keep the original, you have a much better understanding.
it is not a matter of either this or that....it is a matter of having both...that is the big difference of this "clumsiness".
format_quote Originally Posted by
Spiritlead
Your link about Bible translations did not take me to a web site ?
just look up yourself how many versions of the Bible exist...I am sure wou will find out.
format_quote Originally Posted by
Spiritlead
And in regards to the oldest Bible manuscripts, more ancient copies exist than any other ancient writing, for example the Roman history of Julius Caesar, and others. Plus these copies cover a huge and wide geographic area that prevents them from being gathered together and falsified.
hadeeth of Jesus as you mean...not a manuscript of the gospels.
format_quote Originally Posted by
Spiritlead
Let me remind you. Muslims do not have the original Quran. Why ? Because Uthman burnt all original copies ! Why did he do that ? What was he afraid of ? He was obviously afraid that different versions of “the miraculous Quran” were not being preserved accurately.
yes he was afraid of that. if you have 100 copies of the quraan...and 80 of them are the same and the other 20 have deviations in them...you can assume that the 80 copies are still original...so you collect the other 20 and burn them...and that is what Uthman did. so you are talking only about those worthless copies of the Quraan...not "all original copies"
format_quote Originally Posted by
Spiritlead
In regards to music, rules etc you say … “If God forbids something...you immediately obey and believe, even though we do not know the background of it,” Really ? do you not have the ability to think critically and exercise your own wisdom ?
read above....we can think critically...but we also can trust Gods word on it. We have the option to choose. That is the difference...I am sure you secretly understand that, however you try to push it away...but that is your choice.