Being Conservative or Secular?

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:
I wanted to have a discussion with those muslims who would call themselves 'moderate' or 'secular'. It is very important that we understand the position of Islam in our lives.

Insha'Allah we will also cover issues such as music, movies, and the secular lifestyle.

We should remember that Islam is the moderate path. Hence, Muslims have no need for labels such as conservative or secular. Islam is the complete and balanced system that will grant us success in this world and the next.


:w:

[SalafiFemaleJih]

Asalamualaikum wr wb,

Islamic songs with haraam music allowed in Islam? some say "If its spreading the word of Islam, then its allowed"

so whats the ruling behind it?

walaikum salaam wr wb.

[swanlake]

:sl:

The whole secular-muslim thing is quite contradictory...

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Thread moved. (I mistakenly made it in the General Chat area).

Islamic songs with haraam music allowed in Islam? some say "If its spreading the word of Islam, then its allowed"

:sl:
With regards to music, there are several restrictions and limitations in Islam, which emphasize one's purpose in life and discourage attachment to such material desires.

Your question of using haraam music to promote Islam is a very good question. Certain questions must be asked, eg. Why not use halal music? And we must consider the Islamic alternatives.

Haraam music would include music with waste lyrics or excessive instruments beyond the percussion permitted in Islam. If Islam has discouraged such things, then how can they be of any benefit in bringing people to Islam, irrespective of the content of the lyrics.

Simply put, Muslims should avoid such doubtful matters. Even if you think you can win hearts through rap with Islamic lyrics etc., nothing will ever wns hearts as well as the blessed message of Allah Glorified and Exalted, the Holy Qur'an.

:w:

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[makaveli]

so what would you like to discuss?

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Well, to start, do you believe in God? And to what extent does that belief permeate your heart? Is it a belief, or simply a tradition of your ancestors which you follow?

:w:

[makaveli]

belive in god - yes

do i want to follow all the strict rules like no dating, no music, no tv and so on? No.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

No need to answer questions I haven't asked. :)

Okay, so you do believe that there is a creator, the One God. And this is your free belief from your heart.

moving on to the next question:
What do you believe our purpose in life is?

[Z]

Asalamu Alaikum

Brother, let's try not think bad of our brothers insha Allah.

[Z]

Asalamu Alaikum

Sorry? :confused:

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

I assume he's talking about cricket.

[Uthman]

:sl:

:w:

[Chuck]

Do secular muslims see premartial sex, drinking, and things like that as haram?

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

I think the question is not what is regarded as haraam or not (since the Qur'an is very clear on these issues), but how important the laws of the Qur'an are to secular Muslims. Many probably don't care, and see it only as a tradition of their ancestors.

:w:

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

Regarding thinking of Islamic Issues as tales of the ancients:

083.013 When Our Signs are rehearsed to him, he says, "Tales of the ancients!"

083.014 By no means! but on their hearts is the stain of the (ill) which they do!


068.015 When to him are rehearsed Our Signs, "Tales of the ancients", he cries!

068.016 Soon shall We brand (the beast) on the snout!

Wasalam

[Chuck]

Many probably don't care, and see it only as a tradition of their ancestors.

Then what is the point that they consider them haram? In other words, they don't mind getting into haram?

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

They understand that Islam prohibits such things, but they don't really care very much about what Islam prohibits and permits. They consider religion like some background name that has no impact in their lives.

[Chuck]

They understand that Islam prohibits such things, but they don't really care very much about what Islam prohibits and permits. They consider religion like some background name that has no impact in their lives.

Don't take it the wrong way, but I want a secular muslim to confirm this.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

no problem.

:w:

[Green Bird]

I think it does have some impact on their lives, but only to an extent. Islam is fine when it comes to Ramadan and celebrating Eid, but when it comes to prohibition of other things that might make their lives more difficicult or challenge their current ideaology they discard it as extremity.

[Green Bird]

Sorry butted in-replied too late

[_salam_]

Here is a really good lecture about being Muslim and secular, you should all check it out. Here

[Mu'maneen]

:sl:

If we look at the things Allah has forbidden us to do, we can actually see Hugh advantages to our health and our lives in general. Let us go through a few forbidden things and see the advantages and disadvantages:

***ALCOHOL***
ADVANTAGES: Get "excited" and gain confidence through the effect of Alcohol. Certain wines good for the heart.
DISADVANTAGES: Hangover, alcoholic vomiting which is 100 times worse than a regular vomit, liver and kidney failure, certain diseases and illness caused by Alcoholic drinks. Though wine may have a positive effect on the body, it has a negative effect to the kidney, blood concentration and to the eyes. Severe pains and headache 24 hours after consummation of alcohol, addiction, fights, suicide, injuries, Zina (adultery) without knowing, sexually transmitted diseases, break-up of marriages etc.

***NIGHTCLUB***
ADVANTAGES: Fun for a little while. Have a quick "relationship" with the opposite gender.
DISADVANTAGES: Hearing affected long-term over a long period of time due to the very loud music usually present at Nightclubs. Fights, injuries, danger present throughout, Zina (adultery), sexually transmitted diseases, headache and unrest the next day, especially if one has work or study etc.

***GIRLFRIEND/BOYFRIEND***
ADVANTAGES: Enjoy a kiss once in a while. Sexual relationship.
DISADVANTAGES: Sexually transmitted diseases, break-ups that end in heartaches, severe depression, arguments, fights between friends, betrayal, sometimes suicide, missing work or study, ending in being sacked or losing out on an education etc.

There are many more that can be added to the list of course, as that was just an example. for every Haram or Sin, though there may be some "fun" found in it, always the disadvantages will outweigh the advantages at one stage or another, no matter what, which is why we are told in Islamic terms:

Obey Allah and His Messenger (salla Allaahu 'alayhi wa sallam), and you shall have a rewarding life now and a most magnificent reward with your Lord when you shall meet Him on The Day of Rising. Disobey Allah and His Messenger (salla Allaahu 'alayhi wa sallam), and you shall have a miserable life now and and a most severe punishment the day you face your Lord on The Day of Rising.


--------------------

Vist my new Islamic Site:
http://hstrial-besmail.homestead.com/islam.html

[Celestial]

thx for the link salam, it was really usefull :).

can a mulsim be secular ?
and clearly the answer is IMPOSIBLE !!

[Chuck]

I think secular muslim not gona reply anymore.

Anyway....

I think it does have some impact on their lives, but only to an extent. Islam is fine when it comes to Ramadan and celebrating Eid, but when it comes to prohibition of other things that might make their lives more difficicult or challenge their current ideaology they discard it as extremity.

You are describing weak muslims, what I heard secular muslims doesn't consider all the things declared haram in Quran as bad.

In your sense, weak muslims were always there since the time of early muslims... but why do secular muslims give them a new name? >> http://www.secularislam.org/

[makaveli]

Do secular muslims see premartial sex, drinking, and things like that as haram?

depends from person to person. I wouldn't mind having sex before marriage and be lucky enough to make my fantasy become a reality (3some with 2 girls). I'm don't drink. We belive in Allah but don't belive in all these rules that prevent us from having fun and doing whatever makes us feel good. We want to go out with friends (guys and girls) and watch a movie and talk about it. We find many rules of Islam exremely strict.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

No need to answer questions I haven't asked. :)

Okay, so you do believe that there is a creator, the One God. And this is your free belief from your heart.

moving on to the next question:
What do you believe our purpose in life is?

...

[makaveli]

to enjoy life but your answer is to please Allah, right?

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

depends from person to person. I wouldn't mind having sex before marriage and be lucky enough to make my fantasy become a reality (3some with 2 girls). I'm don't drink. We belive in Allah but don't belive in all these rules that prevent us from having fun and doing whatever makes us feel good. We want to go out with friends (guys and girls) and watch a movie and talk about it. We find many rules of Islam exremely strict.

May Allah Guide you brother to the Sirrat Al-Mustaqim

wasalam

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

024.002 The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by God, if ye believe in God and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

024.003 Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry any but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever: nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman: to the Believers such a thing is forbidden.


Makevali, do you know what fornication is? It is having sex when you are not married. There is the punishment stated CLEARLY above, and that is only the punishment of this world. The Punishment of the Next life is greater. Ask Allah for forgivness for he forgives one if he sincerely repents.

068.033 Such is the Punishment (in this life); but greater is the Punishment in the Hereafter,- if only they knew!


024.024 On the Day when their tongues, their hands, and their feet will bear witness against them as to their actions.

024.026 Women impure are for men impure, and men impure for women impure and women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity: these are not affected by what people say: for them there is forgiveness, and a provision honourable.

024.030 Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And God is well acquainted with all that they do

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

024.021 O ye who believe! follow not Satan's footsteps: if any will follow the footsteps of Satan, he will (but) command what is shameful and wrong: and were it not for the grace and mercy of God on you, not one of you would ever have been pure: but God doth purify whom He pleases: and God is One Who hears and knows (all things).

wasalam

[makaveli]

http://www.secularislam.org/

:thumbs_up

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

May Allah Guide you brother to the Sirrat Al-Mustaqim

:thumbs_up

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

to enjoy life but your answer is to please Allah, right?

:D you keep trying to anticipate my response...relax. We'll get to my views later.

Now you stated that your purpose in life is have fun. :confused:

Is this your purpose in life? Do you realize that there are billions of people out their starving and poor?

Do you realize that there are so many human beings crying in pain from sickness and disease?

Do you realize how many children there are, still wondering why their parents were taken from them, by the cruel hands of death?

What do you say to these human beings, who live in endless suffering while you enjoy yourself and recline in worldy pleasures? What response do you give to these people when they ask what their purpose in life is?

To have fun?

You say you believe in God. Do you honestly believe that God has placed us on this planet, amidst so much suffering, chaos, bloodshed, and corruption, for the amusement of a select few like yourself??


My second question to you is, do you belive in the messengers and messages, which God has sent to humanity to guide them back to, the straight path.

:w:

[makaveli]

Is this your purpose in life? Do you realize that there are billions of people out their starving and poor?

Do you realize that there are so many human beings crying in pain from sickness and disease?

Do you realize how many children there are, still wondering why their parents were taken from them, by the cruel hands of death?

What do you say to these human beings, who live in endless suffering while you enjoy yourself and recline in worldy pleasures? What response do you give to these people when they ask what their purpose in life is?

To have fun?

You say you believe in God. Do you honestly believe that God has placed us on this planet, amidst so much suffering, chaos, bloodshed, and corruption, for the amusement of a select few like yourself??


My second question to you is, do you belive in the messengers and messages, which God has sent to humanity to guide them back to, the straight path.

:w:

yes, many humans are suffering but guess what? I won't be able to stop all that or anything. Every man for himself. It's a cruel world we live in, you can't think of helping others 24/7, that's not gonna get you anywhere in life.

I dont' care about most of the messages because they are full of strict laws which prevents me from having fun and having freedom.

"What response do you give to these people when they ask what their purpose in life is?"

Life's not fair. You know it, I know it and sometimes life's nothing but a -----.

[makaveli]

4 stars? lol what word did u use?

[makaveli]

:sl:

My friend, you crave a sense of freedom and fun, and dismiss strickness am i right? Well, will you be having fun and freedom in the grave, or will you suffer the punishment of the grave? Allaah knows best.

Allah is forgiving and nice so it's all good. :D so we are just pawns in his playground which he looks over and have a laugh, wow that makes me feel good.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

yes, many humans are suffering but guess what? I won't be able to stop all that or anything. Every man for himself. It's a cruel world we live in, you can't think of helping others 24/7, that's not gonna get you anywhere in life.

Please answer my question.

As it is, the Qur'an warned of such a mentality 1400 years ago:
45:23-24 Have you not seen the one who takes as his god his own vain desires? Allah has, knowing (him as such), left him astray, and sealed his hearing and his heart (and understanding), and put a cover on his sight. Who, then, will guide him after Allah (has withdrawn Guidance)? Will ye not then receive admonition?

And they say: "What is there but our life in this world? We shall die and we live, and nothing but time can destroy us." But of that they have no knowledge: they merely conjecture.

Amazing how the Qur'an responds directly to your argument.

And I am commanded to reply to your argument as follows:
45:26 Say: "It is Allah Who gives you life, then gives you death; then He will gather you together for the Day of Judgment about which there is no doubt": But most men do not understand.

But thouugh I have given you the true response, the truth is what the Qur'an has just said, namely most men do not understand. Hence, my duty is to attempt to explain this to you, in order that you may understand.

You stated that the purpose of life was to have fun, and I pointed out how that is blatantly false.

What then is the purpose of life?

I dont' care about most of the messages because they are full of strict laws which prevents me from having fun and having freedom.

If you truly believe in God, then you wouldn't care what he commanded you, no matter how strict or how cruel. Nevertheless, there is nothing in Islam that is strict and prevents freedom, and I say this as a concious muslim. Islam rather liberates the soul, which you have enslaved to animal desires.

My friend, you display the classic ignorance about the world we live in. From your statements, it is clear that you are disconnected from reality and have no real understanding of our mission in life. You live an empty life of material pleasure, yet how do you know you will not die as you are reading this?

As you read these lines, consider your eyes that carefully examine these letters and words. Consider your heart that beats softly as you read my post. Consider your steady inhalation and exhalation. Now imagine, that God, whom you claim to belive in, stopped your breath as you read these very words. You are now reading this sentence and suddenly your lungs stop dilating. you can no longer breathe. You are now choking for breathe and your head begins to pound. Your life of serv itude to animalistic desires comes to an abrupt stop.

Within just over two minutes, brain death would follow. That was your life. And they told you that you would live for at least seventy more years! And you were decieved into thinking that this life was to have fun, even though God condemned this view in the book you never bothered to read:

23:115 Then did you think that We created you uselessly and that to Us you would not be returned?


And you did not open your eyes to the clear warning in the Qur'an, which God purposefully directed towards YOU, Makaveli:

35:5 O men! Certainly the promise of Allah is true. Let not then this present life deceive you, nor let the Chief Deceiver (Satan) deceive you about Allah.

And so as your lifeless corpse collapses in the very place that you sit right now, you will soon see only darkness. You will want to scream for help, but there will be no voice in you. You will want to cry but the eyes that you used in an evil way, will shed no tears.

And as you feel yourself leaving this world, you will be confronted by a powerful servant of the same Creator whom you claimed to believe in, yet recklessly disobeyed. This servant of God is the Angel of Death.

Are you ready for him? As he approaches your corpse he will remove your soul either painlessly for the true believer, or with a terrible ripping and shredding for the sinner.

Imagine your shock when you recieve the latter.


At that moment you would sacrifice anything in the world to be given a second chance to draw closer to your Lord and serve your Creator with all your heart. You would do anything for the opportunity to go back and follow the words of you Lord which you carelessly disregarded.


THIS IS THAT OPPORTUNITY, MAKAVELI. DO NOT LET IT PASS IN VAIN.

I will end with an excerpt from an article on the purpose of life. I will post a little bit of the article regularly for you to read.

What Is The Purpose Of Life ?

They say that a fool lives to eat and a wise man eats to live. But then the question remains: for what purpose does the wise man live? Living is not an end by itself. There has to be a purpose for man to live for. So what is this purpose?

Where from? Where to? And Why?

Any ignorance, however great, could be forgiven except for man to be ignorant about the secret of his existence, his aim in life and what will be his outcome after death. Some thinkers express these questions in simple words: where from? Where to? And why? Meaning: where did I come from? Where am I going? And why am I here?

Those who only believe in the material world and who do not believe in a Creator- the atheists- only believe in sensory data. They say that this universe and everything in it came by itself. All its order is simply due to blind coincidence. They say that man is simply like an animal or a plant and that he will exist for a short period and then end like any other animal or plant.

An Arab Poet, Elya Abu Madhi (a born-Christian), not long ago expressed his uncertainty about the purpose of life in his Arabic poem Al-Talasim, meaning “puzzles,” which I have translated into English. He says in his poem:

I came not knowing from where, but I came.
And I saw a pathway in front of me, so I walked.
And I will remain walking, whether I want this or not.
How did I come? How did I see my pathway?
I do not know!
Am I new or am I old in this existence?
Am I free and unrestrained, or do I walk in chains?
Do I lead myself in my life, or am I being led?
I wish I know, but…
I do not know!
And my path, oh what is my path? Is it long or is it short?
Am I ascending in it, or am I going down and sinking?
Am I the one who is walking on the road,
or is it the road that is moving?
Or are we both standing, but it is the time that is running?
I do not know!
Before I became a full human, do you see
if I were nothing, impossible? Or do you see that I was something?
Is there an answer to this puzzle, or will it remain eternal?
I do not know ... and why do I not know??
I do not know!

This feeling of doubt and confusion about the presence of a Creator and whether He sent messengers and prophets to guide mankind must be quite painful because it deprives the Atheist and the Agnostic of tranquility, security and peace of mind. The unbelievers do not have credible answers to the purpose of one’s existence. And thus they say that man lives for himself and for the pleasures of this life. So what happens when life turns sour? What happens when one goes through hardships? It is no coincidence then that the largest number of suicides takes place amongst Atheists, Agnostics and people who do not know their purpose in life. Do you know which country has the largest number of suicides? It’s Japan. In the year ending March 2000, there were 33,000 suicides in Japan. That is 91 suicides per day or 1 suicide every 15 minutes! This despite Japan being the second largest economy in the world wherein people do not have to worry about providing a roof over their heads or about food or medical care.

Peace be with you, dear brother Makaveli.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

What response do you give to these people when they ask what their purpose in life is?"

Life's not fair. You know it, I know it and sometimes life's nothing but a -----.

You did not answer the question at all! They are asking you about their purpose in life. Why they are here. And you are ranting about "Life's not fair".

If you don't have an answer to the question, the least you can do is admit it. Don't give me this garbage. Answer the question directly. What is the purpose of life?

[makaveli]

they have no purpose. They should be angry at god for creating them like that.

Here's a question: allah created us then who created allah?

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

they have no purpose. They should be angry at god for creating them like that.

Again, you refuse to admit that you don't know the answer to the question. Since you don't know the answer to the question, in your arrogance you have declared that there is no answer.

I want you to go back and read my post. Please. Just take a few moments and read it carefully. Its an perspective that you may one dfay wish you had taken.

Here's a question: allah created us then who created allah?

Common atheist question. You ignore my posts yet you expect me to answer whatever questions you have. I knew that we had to start talking about God, because secular muslims do not fully believe in God as they claim. You said you believe in god, yet as the dialogue has progressed we begin to see that you had hidden doubts all along.

I will answer your question, as soon as you respond to my points and questions.

:w:

[Khattab]

"Did you then think that We had created you in jest, and that you would not be brought back to Us (for account)?" (Qur'an: Muminun, 115).

21/17. Had We intended to take a pastime, We could surely have taken it from Us, if We were going to do (that).


Surah AL-ANAAM chapter number 6 verse number 70
"Leave alone those who take their religion to be mere play and amusement, and are deceived by the life of this world. But proclaim (to them) this (truth): that every soul delivers itself to ruin by its own acts: it will find for itself no protector or intercessor except Allah: if it offered every ransom, (or reparation), none will be accepted: such is (the end of) those who deliver themselves to ruin by their own acts: they will have for drink (only) boiling water, and for punishment, one most grievous: for they persisted in rejecting Allah. "

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

I think there is quite a lot for Mr. Makaveli to respond to here, so we shall wait until he responds before continuing.

:w:

[Chuck]

makaveli, when you will die what do you think what will happen to you?

[_salam_]

Oh!! I've got it, are you ready. It's really simple!!
Purpose of Creation:
"I have only created Jinns and men, that they may WORSHIP Me." Qur'an 51:56

And the purpose of this SHORT life in this world is to see if we can fullfil the purpose of our creation, which is to worship Allah. If you are doing ANYTHING else besides worshipping Allah, it is ultimately a waste of your time.

Here's another good lecture I encourage everybody to listen to. Here

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

And as we know, worship is the deepest manifestation of love, and so our relationship with Allah is one of love, and we have been created to love and worship our Creator.

:w:

[_salam_]

Alhamdulillah!!!!

[_salam_]

I should probably recomend this lecture as well, very good. Here

[Lateralus63]

:sl:

secularism, and correct me if i am wrong, is the belief that one's particular view is the only correct view and no other view can be endorsed. Modernist secularism is very dangerous as it too is oblivious to the whole concept of unity, one can have personal opinions, but not to enforce and label other people as incorrect because they have taken up the certain view.

In response to the first post here, conservatism, or secularism, are labels but they do not change who you are, they are simply a word of defining certain groups practices, essential understanding of the various schisms are vital in rebuttals and calling towards unity through reform and concordist approach.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:
I hate having to 'bump' threads, but this is an important issue and many other issues that keep coming like music and movies, etc. they all relate back to this, so we need to finish the discussion.

:w:

[Lateralus63]

We find many rules of Islam exremely strict.

:sl:

I see what your belief system is, having belief in god but not practicing the rules. You've embraced the view that believing in god is sufficient enough to live life. I can see why you would, you get to live life to the full.

do i want to follow all the strict rules like no dating, no music, no tv and so on? No.

We want to go out with friends (guys and girls) and watch a movie and talk about it. We find many rules of Islam exremely strict.

I dont' care about most of the messages because they are full of strict laws which prevents me from having fun and having freedom.

Now whats interesting is, you base your desicion of following islam as a matter of, "do i want to".

A toddler, does not listen to his parents because he doesnt want to
A teenager rebells because he doesnt want to obey the rules.

Its the same with you, you dont want to follow islam because you are lazy. Simple. (aimed at makaveli)

Following islam is a matter of right or wrong, not a matter of, whether its going to restrict my freedom.

[swanlake]

:sl:

I would ditch the belief in God, if i cant be bothered with His 'strict' rules. What would be the point of one calling themselves a muslim, if he cant be bothered to 'submit' to Him?

[Uthman]

:sl:

This mentality that you should care only about the here and now will backfire on yourself. :( If you cannot be bothered to follow the rules set by the creator that is solely for our benefit then you have failed the test, simple as. :(

021:001

Draws near for mankind their reckoning, while they turn away in heedlessness.

And remember that Allah is the oft-forgiving, most merciful. :)

:w:

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

:sl:

This mentality that you should care only about the here and now will backfire on yourself. :( If you cannot be bothered to follow the rules set by the creator that is solely for our benefit then you have failed the test, simple as. :(

021:001

Draws near for mankind their reckoning, while they turn away in heedlessness.

And remember that Allah is the oft-forgiving, most merciful. :)

:w:

:thumbs_up :thumbs_up :thumbs_up :thumbs_up :thumbs_up

[syedhs]

Salam all,

This will be my first post on this board :)

I don't want to repeat the arguments already presented, so I am offering a different point of view which is regarding the strict law, forbidden etc etc.

Well, once the world Islam is imposed on someone's face.. prolly the quick association comes to our thought is punishment, hell, Allah command us this and that etc. It seems to be full of scary stuff, and when one looks into enjoyable-worldly thing, one can also see the enjoyment of having a premarital sex, etc etc.

However, I present to anyone concern about one of the fundamental in our life -> It is either you pay now, or you pay later! You may be having a great dream about not being discipilined, or being a drunkard, or having sex wherever and whenever you wish. But the consequences will always come later - haunting your life. Being not disciplined (could be viewed as not having prayer on time or not performing at all) will lead your life goes astray - no need to mention. Drunk - you will lose your own control body, premarital sex - if you are used to this, then prolly your marriage will not be lasting or sincereful. You are start wondering to yourself what a mess have you have done to your life.

I believe that every human want an ordered life, full of love etc. But if you cant contain your lust, then you action will dictate your life. If you still believe in God, then it is better then none - so if all those questions about the meaning of life, who is God, all those punishments, good/bad deeds confuse or owverhelm you, I suggest you to maintain your prayer 5 times a day, may Allah show the straight path in the heart.

[Lateralus63]

Salam all,

However, I present to anyone concern about one of the fundamental in our life -> It is either you pay now, or you pay later!

:sl:

This is an excellent point. Its quite a governing attribute to our lives. If you dont educate yourself and have fun, you will suffer later. However suffer first, then you will enjoy yourself later. Open your eyes to the bigger picture, this fundamental is reflected in all the events of life, taking it further and bigger, islam goes to say, suffer now in this life, and enjoy yourself.....for an eternity, in the next.

And lets get more specific, not exactly every single second of our life is suffering, its actually quite balanced. See the mercy of Allah, asking for such little in such a short time frame, but then receiving an eternity of pleasure in return. As soon as people start to realise this, then what you feel doesnt matter anymore, its about what you are EARNING.

[Far7an]

islam goes to say, suffer now in this life, and enjoy yourself.....for an eternity, in the next.

Assalamu alaikum

This reminds me of the beautiful words of our beloved prophet Muhammad (sallalahu alayhi wasalam) 'For the believer, the life of this world is like that of a prison.'

[MetSudaisTwice]

only beautiful words come out of our prophet (SAW)
This life is a Hell(prision) for believers and Paradise(freedom) for the kuffars

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

only beautiful words come out of our prophet (SAW)
This life is a Hell(prision) for believers and Paradise(freedom) for the kuffars

You have defintely spoken the truth :)

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:
I would like to continue this discussion (which makaveli never responded to) with any other secular Muslims. Please read through the whole thread first, and then we will discuss why it is futile to believe in Allah yet reject His rules.

:w:

[rsx]

we belive the laws set out are out of date and needs to updated to fit the 21st century where dating, talking to girls without lowering your gaze and other stuff should not be haram.

[Bittersteel]

laws are laws they won't be changed even if humans start to inhabit other planets or if aliens come from outerpsace or even if men travel faster than the speed of light.

Dating is haram for some very good reasons.It leads to more evils such as pre marital sex and adultery and fornication.

Pre marital sex is the same as animals copulating and breeding.

Islamic laws aren't tribal laws.The Shariah gives humans the rights they deserve.

This life is a Hell(prision) for believers and Paradise(freedom) for the kuffars

well said brother I too agree with you.

[TEH]

Hey rsx man, if you dont like the laws, just leave the religion, why do you want to change the religion for? The religion, even if you dont believe that some of its teachings are correct,. has been proved and tested by earlier generations of people, who lived a happy life, just by following Islam. But hey, if you dont agree with it, why make the hasstle of changing it, just leave...

:D

[Bittersteel]

yeah...

[minaz]

This life is a Hell(prision) for believers and Paradise(freedom) for the kuffars

I dont' like this phrase (too marxist for me), however I agree that to enter paradise one does have to take sacrifices in this life which aren't easy to take. Overall one should never take the phrase seriously cuz it'll mess your mind, but stay away from the common sense evils.

[Bittersteel]

Overall one should never take the phrase seriously cuz it'll mess your mind, but stay away from the common sense evils.

well its hard for me since most pious and religious Muslims suffer in Bangladesh while the rich ones get all they want and I definitely know they aren't pious.Almost or rather fully Kafirs.

[minaz]

Yes my point exactly, the marxist methodology does seem to be absorbed mostly in countries with high level of corruption such as yours Abdul Aziz. However you are a strong muslim, you should show these "Almost or rather fully Kafirs" that Islam is the perfect lifestyle. At te end of the day I can't fully understand your situation as you experience it first hand, so i see your point :)

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

we belive the laws set out are out of date and needs to updated to fit the 21st century where dating, talking to girls without lowering your gaze and other stuff should not be haram.

Do you believe that God is outdated? Do you believe that He is incapable of revealing practical laws for His own creation? You're saying He doesn't understand us properly?

A similar statement was posted before by another member. I dealt with it in much detail in this post of mine.

Perhaps you could answer the question....what is your purpose in life?

Br. Abdul Aziz and Br. TEH, you should not be encouraging a Muslim brother to become an apostate and leave the religion. Even if he is not a practicing Muslim we should pray that Allah swt guides him to full realization of the temporal life he is in, and the futility of worldly pleasures if they are accompanied by disobedience to God.

I have full faith that an intelligent brother like rsx will be able to have a productive discussion here and come closer to Allah.

May Allah guide us all.
:w:

[TEH]

Alrighty then, may Allah make him closer to Allah insha allah, RSX, dont leave, join us man...

:)

[NooralHaya]

ameen. lets hear what the brother has to say inshaAllah

[Bittersteel]

Br. Abdul Aziz and Br. TEH, you should not be encouraging a Muslim brother to become an apostate and leave the religion. Even if he is not a practicing Muslim we should pray that Allah swt guides him to full realization of the temporal life he is in, and the futility of worldly pleasures if they are accompanied by disobedience to God.

I believe I wasn't.

This life is a Hell(prision) for believers and Paradise(freedom) for the kuffars

Overall one should never take the phrase seriously cuz it'll mess your mind, but stay away from the common sense evils.

well its hard for me since most pious and religious Muslims suffer in Bangladesh while the rich ones get all they want and I definitely know they aren't pious.Almost or rather fully Kafirs.

I wasn't trying to encourage him to leave the religion.If I have offended anyone please forgive me.I was telling you what the situation is like in Bangladesh.


Rich ones are moderate (too moderate) and poor ones are extreme,while me ,...tries to remain a true Muslim though I don't pray 5 times a day,May Allah forgive me.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

I believe I wasn't.

:sl: brother,
sorry if I misunderstood you, but TEH made the statement and you said "yeah..." so I assumed you agreed, although I could be mistaken.

But Alahmadulilah, now you've clarified that you do not wish for that, so its fine now.
:w:

[Bittersteel]

its alright.

It was like TEH said if RSX doesn't want to follow Islam its okay since Allah gave us a choice.

[Bittersteel]

I apologize if i have offended RSX.I think the best way to teach him is to be patient and gentle with him.If he still refuses then its till okay.He has his freedom,Allah has stated that.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:
It seems as though makaveli and rsx no longer wish to debate this subject with me.

I wonder if I'll ever be able to find a rational secular muslim who can reason. Probably not, since reason leads one to the service of Allah, away from secularism.

:w:

[Khattab]

"Then seest thou such a one as takes as his god his own vain desire? Allah has, knowing (him as such), left him astray, and sealed his hearing and his heart (and understanding), and put a cover on his sight. Who, then, will guide him after Allah (has withdrawn Guidance)? Will ye not then receive admonition?" (45:23)

[- Qatada -]

"Then seest thou such a one as takes as his god his own vain desire? Allah has, knowing (him as such), left him astray, and sealed his hearing and his heart (and understanding), and put a cover on his sight. Who, then, will guide him after Allah (has withdrawn Guidance)? Will ye not then receive admonition?" (45:23)

Asalam o alikum warahmatulahi wabarakatuh

subhan Allah! mash Allah