Can you prove that the Quran has been altered yaa ayyuhaal kafiroon?

IbnAbdulHakim

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now i know if someone looks deep enough they can even "supposedly" prove that man has come from monkeys. If someone researches stubborn on his views he can even conclude "supposedly" that fish were once birds or vice versa but what i find interesting is just what do the atheists and other rejectors of islam use to deny the fact that the Quran has stood the test of time?

what can you bring forth?

we declare that the Quran has stood the test of time because any alterations were immediately fixed due to the memorisation of the quran by thousands of Muslimeen

now can you find a widely accepted quran other then the one the millions of muslims read on a daily basis? and if you think this same quran has been changed a couple of hundreds of years ago PROVE IT!
 
Shalom Aleikhem (Peace be upon you),

I really do not want to get into a debate here, alright. I have a few points though that I must point out because you are resting on a few assumptions that I must disagree with. (1) The fact that the Quran has stood the ‘test of time’ is irrelevant because books from Shakespeare have stood a huge amounts of time and other texts from such religions as the Sikh would argue that their books have stood and equal amount of time. The amount of time a book stands uncorrupted does not make it legitimate. (2) Uthman made a verdict that if any verse differed, then the Quraishiite version was to take priority. Clearly, this showed that there were already differences. Uthman also had all other versions committed to flame. There would be no necessity to do so if there weren't already differences. Here is some information from an Islamic site:

There were other personal collections of the portions of the Qur’an that people had with them. These might have been incomplete and with mistakes. Uthman (R.A.) only appealed to the people to destroy all these copies, which did not match the original manuscript of the Qur’an in order to preserve the original text of the Qur’an. Two such copies of the copied text of the original Qur’an authenticated by the Prophet are present to this day, one at the museum in Tashkent in erstwhile Soviet Union and the other at the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul, Turkey.

http://islamicvoice.com/July2006/QuestionHour-DrZakirNaik/index.php

How could there be a conflict or any sort in regards to the text of the Quran if it was memorized by so many? Why did some get it wrong, and why were there differing opinions which led Uthman to the conclusion that he should burn every copy of the Quran that did not meet the Quraishiite version?

Also, during Umars farewell speech, he addressed different issues. The speech is included in Sahih Bukhari, and in it there is a reference to an alleged verse in the Qur'an named the Verse of Rajm. The alleged verse is quoted as:

"O people! Do not claim to be the offspring of other than your fathers, as it is disbelief (unthankfulness) on your part that you claim to be the offspring of other than your real father."​

Also from Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3421:

"'A'isha (Allah be pleased with, her) reported that it had been revealed in the Holy Qur'an that ten clear sucklings make the marriage unlawful, then it was abrogated (and substituted) by five sucklings and Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) died and it was before that time (found) in the Holy Qur'an (and recited by the Muslims)."​

Is their a verse in the Quran concerning this today?

I would also like to ask that I get your answers (not some Islamic sites) to genuine objections I have concerning some of your statements. I am not here to challenge Islam, nor debate about the Quran because regardless of if it was ever corrupted; I do not view it as a book even from the original that contains any sort of holiness. I just wish to challenge some of the bold statements you have made in your post.

Either way, I wish you peace and happiness in your practice of a purely monotheistic religion.
 
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now i know if someone looks deep enough they can even "supposedly" prove that man has come from monkeys.
I usually lose interest in a debate when the originator opens with a distortion, misstatements of accepted theories, or an outright lie.
 
:sl:
I will sit this one out as well, however will add only a brief point or two a response to Rav:
In 1450 Johannes Gutenberg made his first printing press and only then were many hundreds of copies made of any book and distributed to answer why some books are better preserved, the answer is, simply because of their newness...
Sikhism is only 500 yrs old ( it isn't divinely inspired- that is a topic for another day and another thread) and I'll not descend to that my religion is divinely inspired and yours is man made or yours is corrupted by the hands of scribes-- William Shakespeare also born sometime around 1564 again, post Gutenberg. So I believe that should take care of how painstaking it is to preserve something in its original form 15 centuries ago to something written 4-5 centuries ago. And also take care of why one would want to destroy any distortions conjured by folk with poor memorization skills or amnestic episodes, you can see where there would be a great deal of confusion and innovations. It isn't like you can make a tiny note of correction on the Sunday edition of the part one scribe misquoted. I have no interested in defending the Quran or wanting to prove anything from this point on I'll leave it to someone scholarly or the original thread starter
Peace
 
Shalom (Peace),

Those are good points purest, I assume that the Quran, if preserved was indeed a much greater accomplishment, and in no way is my aim to attack Islam. The original poster made some strong statements so I merely gathered a few reasons as to why someone may believe something different than him. A lot of my religion rests on faith as well, so I am the first who will refuse to stand up and make a declaration stating something like "my religion is right and yours is wrong" because we cannot really prove any such thing. That was my point in posting. I doubt I could keep up or comprehend half of the vast knowledge of Islam you hold in your brain Purest, but I feel like I am obligated to point out that no religion is definitive and can make such a declaration, (including mine), which is why Judaism does not expect the entire world to follow the Torah, but only those who actually witnessed the miracles (and their descendants).

Nowhere in my post do I say the Quran is corrupted. What I say is that there is a possibility it is... and you can rest your faith on that G-d kept it together and uncorrupt, but we have to label that as 'faith', especially since the Quran speaks on that 'substitution' of ideas and commandments is normal in Islamic law in accordance to what the Quran teaches, so therefore, yes, it can all be explained, but with faith in G-d, not faith in absolute proof, which is absolutely fine, since faith in G-d is a beautiful thing indeed.

May we all come together and form a bridge of understanding in hopes of achieving world peace despite our differences. That is my prayer.
 
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Shalom Aleikhem (Peace be upon you),

I really do not want to get into a debate here, alright. I have a few points though that I must point out because you are resting on a few assumptions that I must disagree with. (1) The fact that the Quran has stood the ‘test of time’ is irrelevant because books from Shakespeare have stood a huge amounts of time and other texts from such religions as the Sikh would argue that their books have stood and equal amount of time. The amount of time a book stands uncorrupted does not make it legitimate.



That's a totally different issue, and no - Sikhism began around 700 years after the message revealed to Allaah's final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him.) [Sikhism was founded by Guru Nanak who was born in (1469–1538 CE)]

Shakespeare? He was born on 1616 CE. Which is around a similar time period as the Sikhi's, except maybe around 100years after.


The message revealed to Allaah's final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) was around 700/800years before the above mentioned characters.


So them examples aren't really good examples. Nor were the whole plays or religious texts memorised by these people. Word by word, letter by letter.


Quoting brother Ansar:
I'll try to give you a comprehensive answer as to why the Qur'an is regarded the way it is by so many people.
1. The Power of the Qur'anic Message:
-it is universal, unrestricted by time and applicable to any nation/culture. The Qur'an is by far the most widely followed and acted-upon book in the world. As for the Bible, most Christians follow the Church over the Bible, and each denomination has its own bible anyway. The fact that there is no other book in the world that forms the constitution of the lives of billions of followers is itself a sign.
-it is practical and logical, it can be established practically in society and is logically able to address the fundamental questions relating to all aspects of our universe.
-it is comprehensive, addressing all fundamental sectors of human life, be it spritual, physical, mental, social/societal, politcal, environmental, economic, etc.
-it is natural, in concordance with a person's nature and what they feel deep inside to be the truth.
-it is clear and consistent, free of the changes in worldview and understanding that dominate the works of human beings.
-it is deep, having provoked thousands upon thousands of volumes of exegesis, expounding upon its meaning and revealing fascinating details that many people otherwise miss in their reading of the Qur'an.​
2. The Power of the Qur'anic Style:
-it is Interactive, the text seems alive as it responds to the very questions that arise in one's mind at that moment. It speaks to the reader and delivers specific yet universal advice.
-it is Inerrant, free from contradictons and discrepancies, or other errors that would normally be found in the works of human beings.
-it is Memorizable; the Qur'an is the only book in the world which is continuously being memorized by millions of people and recited daily. No other book has been committed to memory by so many followers, as though it fits in one's mind as a key in a lock.
-its Language, the Qur'anic arabic is a stunning miracle in itself, its style is powerful and its recitation is melodious. More info: Here, Here, Here.​
3. The Power of the Qur'anic Text:
-it is Preserved, even after fourteen and a half centuries, the Qur'an is recited today exactly as it was first revealed. Thus it was free of the tampering that befell other religious scriptures.
-its other Remarkable features; many Muslims find a striking concordance between many Qur'anic statements and established scientific truths, which could not have been known by any normal human being 14 centuries ago. (see here). Many Muslims have also found the Qur'anic perfection extends even to various mathematical miracles within the text. As well, there are the Qur'anic Prophecies.
-its Authorship; the context in which the Qur'an was revealed leaves the reader with no other conclusion than the fact that it could only be the word of God.​
This is just my summary of the miraculous features Muslims find in the Qur'an. For more information, please see section 3c of The First and Final Commandment.


(2) Uthman made a verdict that if any verse differed, then the Quraishiite version was to take priority. Clearly, this showed that there were already differences.


This isn't the case at all. Did you know the Qur'an was revealed in 7 different dialects for the different arab tribes?

THE AHRUF

First there is the issue nof Ahruf (dialects/modes). The Qur'an was revealed in seven ahruf, as is proved in many mutawaatir ahadith. This was because different tribes pronounced and spelled words differently. The forms matched the dialects of following seven tribes:

1.Quraysh
2.Hudhayl
3.Thaqîf
4.Hawâzin
5.Kinânah
6.Tamîm
7.Yemen


The revelation of the Qur'an in seven different ahruf made its recitation and memorization much easier for the various tribes. At the same time the Qur'an challenged them to produce a surah like it in their own dialect so that they would not complain about the incomprehensibility.

Regarding whether or not these ahruf have been preserved, there are three opinions, the strongest being that of Ibn Taymiyyah, Ash-Shatibee, Ar-Raazi, Ibn Katheer and Ibn Al-Jazaree and many others. They say that when Uthman rd was compiling the Qur'an, he had Zaib ibn Thabit record it without the vowelation and consonants to accomodate the different Ahruf. At some points where the ahruf differed greatly, they recorded it according to the Quraysh dialect. There are 4 benefits which show the Wisdom of Allah revealing the Qur'an in seven ahruf:

1. To facilitate the memorization of the Qur'an. The arabs did not all speak arabic in the same way. The ahruf eased the memorization and was significant in the preservation of the Qur'an.

2. To prove the miraculous nature of the Qur'an. For despite all the differences, the meaning of the Ahruf did not contradict one another, but rather were complimentary.

3. To prove the truthfulness of the Prophet Muhammad saws, for despite the fact that he was illiterate, the revelation of the Qur'an occured in different tribal dialects and different words, all of which consisted of the most fluent and eloquent speech of his time.

4. To honour the ummah of the Prophet Muhammad saws and show its superiority over all other nations.


http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-sources/1202-uloom-al-quran-qiraat-ahruf.html



Therefore, when Uthman did burn the copies - he preserved it in the Quraysh dialect since that was the dialect of Allaah's Messenger (peace be upon him) i.e. Quraysh, a descendant of Abraham (peace be upon him.)

more info about the preservation of Qur'an by the companions can be seen here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/738055-post2.html



Uthman also had all other versions committed to flame. There would be no necessity to do so if there weren't already differences. Here is some information from an Islamic site:
There were other personal collections of the portions of the Qur’an that people had with them. These might have been incomplete and with mistakes. Uthman (R.A.) only appealed to the people to destroy all these copies, which did not match the original manuscript of the Qur’an in order to preserve the original text of the Qur’an. Two such copies of the copied text of the original Qur’an authenticated by the Prophet are present to this day, one at the museum in Tashkent in erstwhile Soviet Union and the other at the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul, Turkey.

http://islamicvoice.com/July2006/QuestionHour-DrZakirNaik/index.php
How could there be a conflict or any sort in regards to the text of the Quran if it was memorized by so many? Why did some get it wrong, and why were there differing opinions which led Uthman to the conclusion that he should burn every copy of the Quran that did not meet the Quraishiite version?


From what we see above, there were 7 dialects the Qur'an was revealed in.
The Qur'an continued to be read according to the sevenahruf until midway through Caliph 'Uthman's rule when some confusion arose in the outlying provinces concerning the Qur'an's recitation. Some Arab tribes had began to boast about the superiority of their ahruf and a rivalry began to develop. At the same time, some new Muslims also began mixing the various forms of recitation out of ignorance. Caliph 'Uthman decided to make official copies of the Qur'an according to the dialect of the Quraysh and send them along with the Qur'anic reciters to the major centres of Islam. This decision was approved by Sahaabah [companions] and all unofficial copies of the Qur'an were destroyed. Following the distribution of the official copies, all the other ahruf were dropped and the Qur'an began to be read in only one harf. Thus, the Qur'an which is available through out the world today is written and recited only according to theharf of Quraysh.

[8] Ibid., pp. 28-29.


From there, we see that the Qur'an was revealed in 7 dialects as the Messenger of Allaah stated;


From Abû Hurairah:
The Messenger of God(P) said: "An All-knowing, Wise, Forgiving, Merciful sent down the Qur'an in seven ahruf."[2]
[2] Ibid.


And not just that, the famous companions who had memorised the 7 dialects were still alive to know the original way of recitation, so even if confusion was to come up from new muslims, the companions were still alive to know the difference between what is the correct recitation, and what isn't the correct recitation.


Some of the personal copies which were burnt may have had notes on i.e. Abdullah ibn Mas'ud (a famous companion of Allaah's Messenger) had a personal copy which he writ himself, but he had also written the Prophetic sayings which he had heard also on the copy for his own personal notes, yet if someone was to read these in the future - then they may have mistaken it for Qur'an. Therefore this also was burnt. Which proves that it wasn't the Qur'an which was in error, rather it was the people who may have misunderstood.
Now a few words on Qirâ'ât:
A Qirâ'ât is for the most part a method of pronunciation used in the recitations of the Qur'an. These methods are different from the seven forms or modes (ahruf) in which the Qur'an was revealed. The seven modes were reduced to one, that of the Quraysh, during the era of Caliph 'Uthman, and all of the methods of recitation are based on this mode. The various methods have all been traced back to the Prophet(P) through a number of Sahaabah [companions] who were most noted for their Qur'anic recitations. That is, these Sahaabah recited the Qur'an to the Prophet(P) or in his presence and received his approval. Among them were the following: Ubayy Ibn K'ab, 'Alee Ibn Abi Taalib, Zayd Ibn Thaabit, 'Abdullah Ibn Mas'ud, Abu ad-Dardaa and Abu Musaa al-Ash'aree. Many of the other Sahaabah learned from these masters. For example, Ibn 'Abbaas, the master commentator of the Qur'an among the Sahaabah, learned from both Ubayy and Zayd.[9]
The transmission of the Qur'an is a mutawâtir transmission, that is, there are a large number of narrators on each level of the chain. Dr. Bilaal Philips gives a brief account of the history of recitation in his book:
Among the next generation of Muslims referred to as Taabe'oon, there arose many scholars who learned the various methods of recitation from the Sahaabah [companions] and taught them to others. Centres of Qur'anic recitation developed in al-Madeenah, Makkah, Kufa, Basrah and Syria, leading to the evolution of Qur'anic recitation into an independent science. By mid-eighth century CE, there existed a large number of outstanding scholars all of whom were considered specialists in the field of recitation. Most of their methods of recitations were authenticated by chains of reliable narrators ending with the Prophet(P). Those methods which were supported by a large number of reliable narrators on each level of their chain were called Mutawaatir and were considered to be the most accurate. Those methods in which the number of narrators were few or only one on any level of the chain were refered to as shaadhdh. Some of the scholars of the following period began the practice of designating a set number of individual scholars from the pervious period as being the most noteworthy and accurate. By the middle of the tenth century, the number seven became popular since it coincided with the number of dialects in which the Qur'an was revealed.[10]


SOURCE:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Qiraat/hafs.html#1

Also, during Umars farewell speech, he addressed different issues. The speech is included in Sahih Bukhari, and in it there is a reference to an alleged verse in the Qur'an named the Verse of Rajm. The alleged verse is quoted as:
"O people! Do not claim to be the offspring of other than your fathers, as it is disbelief (unthankfulness) on your part that you claim to be the offspring of other than your real father."​

You can read the below point to understand the issue of abrogation insha Allaah (God willing.) Since this issue of rajm is similar to the example below. i.e. in abrogation.


Also from Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3421:
"'A'isha (Allah be pleased with, her) reported that it had been revealed in the Holy Qur'an that ten clear sucklings make the marriage unlawful, then it was abrogated (and substituted) by five sucklings and Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) died and it was before that time (found) in the Holy Qur'an (and recited by the Muslims)."​
Is their a verse in the Quran concerning this today?



This is explained in your own question in the exact hadith which you quoted;
Here is the hadith that supposedly talks about the "missing verse" from the Quran...

Saheeh Muslim
Book 008, Number 3421:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with, her) reported that it had been revealed in the Holy Qur'an that ten clear sucklings make the marriage unlawful, then it was abrogated (and substituted) by five sucklings and Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) died and it was before that time (found) in the Holy Qur'an (and recited by the Muslims).

Imam Nawawi says in his commentary on Saheeh Muslim...

[FONT=&quot]هو بضم الياء من ( يقرأ ) ومعناه أن النسخ بخمس رضعات تأخر إنزاله جدا حتى أنه صلى الله عليه وسلم توفي وبعض الناس يقرأ خمس رضعات ويجعلها قرآنا متلوا لكونه لم يبلغه النسخ لقرب عهده فلما بلغهم النسخ بعد ذلك رجعوا عن ذلك وأجمعوا على أن هذا لا يتلى [/FONT]
There is a dumma on the letter ya'a and it means that the abrogation of the five sucklings came very late until the time that the Prophet peace be upon him died and a few people were reciting the five sucklings verse making it part of the Qur'an for he (Muhammad PBUH) did not inform them of its abrogation. So when he did inform them afterwards they stopped reciting it and formed a consensus that this verse should not be recited anymore (Imam Nawawi, Sharh Saheeh Muslim, Commentary on Hadith no. 2634, Source)


Al Sindi says in his commentary on Sunan Al Nisaa'i..


فقيل إن الخمس أيضا منسوخة تلاوة إلا أن نسخها كان في قرب وفاته صلى الله تعالى عليه وسلم فلم يبلغ بعض الناس فكانوا يقرءونه حين توفي صلى الله تعالى عليه وسلم ثم تركوا تلاوته
It is said that the five's (verse on five sucklings) recitation has been abrogated and its abrogation came near the death of the Prophet peace be upon him so he did not inform some of the people. So they used to recite it as part of the Quran after the Prophet's (peace be upon him) death. Then they left its recitation. (Al Sindi, Sharh Sunan Al Nisaa'i, Commentary on Hadith no. 3255, Source)

Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid said...
For breastfeeding to have the effect of transmitting its benefits from the nursing woman to the child suckled, it must meet certain conditions, which are:
  1. The breastfeeding must happen within the first two years of the child’s life, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “The mothers shall give suck to their children for two whole years, (that is) for those (parents) who desire to complete the term of suckling…” [al-Baqarah 2:233].
  2. The number of breastfeedings must total the known five feeds, in which the child eats his fill as if eating and drinking. If the child leaves the breast for a reason, such as to take a breath or to switch from one breast to the other, this (i.e., each separate time the child latches on) is not counted as one breastfeeding. This is the opinion of al-Shaafa’i, and the opinion favoured by Ibn al-Qayyim. The definition of rad’ah (one breastfeeding) is when the child sucks at the breast and drinks until the milk enters his stomach, then he leaves the breast of his own accord. The evidence for the number five (number of breastfeedings) is the report from ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) who said: “There was in the Qur’aan [an aayah which stipulated that] ten [was the number of] breastfeedings which created the relationship of mahram, then this was abrogated [by another aayah which stipulated] five. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) died and [the aayah which stipulated five] was still being recited as part of the Qur’aan.” (Reported by Muslim, 1452). In other words, the abrogation came so late that when the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) died, some people had not yet heard that this aayah had been abrogated, but when they heard that it had been abrogated, they stopped reciting it, and agreed that it should not be recited, although the ruling mentioned in the aayah remained in effect. This is an abrogation of the recitation without abrogation of the ruling, which is one type of abrogation. (Source)
We can clearly see that the evidence shows that the consensus amongst the companions of the Prophet was that the verse's recitation was meant to be abrogated and it was commanded by the Prophet. However, the command came just a very short while before the Prophet's death and therefore not everyone was informed about it and some still thought that it was part of the Quran. However, once they have been informed that the Prophet ordered its abrogation they stopped reciting it. However, most scholars today believe that its implementation has not been abrogated, only its recitation (e.g. like the verse on stoning)

http://www.load-islam.com/artical_det.php?artical_id=560&section=wel_islam&subsection=Misconceptions


If you want info about the issue of abrogation, then refer to this link:

http://www.islamicboard.com/164414-post2.html


And here's a small snippet of info in regard to abrogation as a worldly example;
It is analogous to a Professor who asks his students to perform 30 minutes of studying everyday for the first week. During the second week, he 'abrogates' his initial command and asks his students to perform 1 hour of studying every day. The Professor did not make a mistake initially, nor did he react to an unforeseen event. Rather, he had always planned to give a lighter load the first week to his students, and then increase the workload the next week because he knew they would be ready for it. In fact, he had his plan for the entire course written down and recorded. So when he initially gave the order to perform 30 minutes of homework, he knew that he would later abrogate this command.




And Allaah knows best.




Regards.
 
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Shalom (Peace), Interesting reading material, it was actually fascinating. However, I have a few comments on your post. I really don’t want to debate, because there is no point. I would like to explore a few areas with you though.

This isn't the case at all. Did you know the Qur'an was revealed in 7 different dialects for the different arab tribes?

Therefore, when Uthman did burn the copies - he preserved the Quraysh dialect since that was the dialect of Allaah's Messenger (peace be upon him) i.e. Quraysh, a descendant of Abraham (peace be upon him.)

Okay, but why does this website say differently? (written by Dr. Zakir Naik):

There were other personal collections of the portions of the Qur’an that people had with them. These might have been incomplete and with mistakes. Uthman (R.A.) only appealed to the people to destroy all these copies, which did not match the original manuscript of the Qur’an in order to preserve the original text of the Qur’an.

Have you heard of the Alaama Siyootee and Mulla Ali Qari regarding Quranic text collections? Can you explain their significance?

Plus, does this (below) have any truth to it?

According to tradition, the next step was taken under ‘Uthman (644-656). One of ‘Uthman’s generals asked the caliph to make such a collection because serious disputes had broken out among his troops from different provinces in regard to the correct readings of the Koran. ‘Uthman chose Zayd ibn Thabit to prepare the official text. Zayd, with the help of three members of noble Meccan families, carefully revised the Koran comparing his version with the "leaves" in the possession of Hafsa, ‘Umar’s daughter; and as instructed, in case of difficulty as to the reading, Zayd followed the dialect of the Quraysh, the Prophet’s tribe. The copies of the new version, which must have been completed between 650 and ‘Uthman’s death in 656, were sent to Kufa, Basra, Damascus, and perhaps Mecca, and one was, of course, kept in Medina. All other versions were ordered to be destroyed.​

Does this quote not reveal that some people strongly disputed concerning the definite Quranic text? The claim in the original post was that Muslims learned the Quran straight from Muhammad or from the people whom he trained. Had that been the case, all people would have learned the very same Quran. The difference should be merely concerning a number of people knowing a smaller amount of it compared to others. Since the disputes are of a serious nature therefore they are about differing Quranic texts and not just about dialects and number of suras and verses.

Apparently, it was more than just a pronunciation thing. If that were the case, it would only have been an uncomplicated mission of replicating Hafsa's version and distributing it. But he didn't do that, did he? He formed a group to evaluate it with other versions. This shows that the disparity was more than mere pronunciation or spelling as you would have us believe wouldn’t it? Or am I possibly missing something? Please correct me if I am.

Could you also explain how we can differentiate between authentic hadiths’s and unauthentic ones? I am taking classes on Islamic history and religious practice at a local university currently along with other philosophy courses and from Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 467:

'By the night as it envelops 'By the day as it appears in brightness; By (Him Who created) male and the female.' (92.1-3) Abu Ad-Darda' then said to me, "Did you hear it (like this) from the mouth of your friend ('Abdullah bin Mas'ud)?" I said, "Yes." He said, "I too, heard it (like this) from the mouth of the Prophet, but these people do not consider this recitation as the correct one."​

it is universal, unrestricted by time and applicable to any nation/culture

Is that being totaly honest? I have heard numerous times on this site that the only true way to understand the Quran is by understanding Arabic, and the arabic culture. Does this not restrict 80% of Muslims from understanding the Quran properly since you can "never translate it" 100% showing its meaning?

it is natural, in concordance with a person's nature and what they feel deep inside to be the truth.

I think that is an assumption and I think Muslims who find meaning in it might, but other religious texts may very well offer the same thing to its followers that the Quran cannot offer. We do not know such things as you say.


Disclaimer: please correct me on any misstatements I made, and show me the correct understanding by way of Islamic holy texts. Since I am still in a learning process about Islamic history.

I want to thank you as well for putting so much time into correcting any misconceptions I held about your religion.
 
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Shalom (Peace), Interesting reading material, it was actually fascinating. However, I have a few comments on your post. I really don’t want to debate, because there is no point. I would like to explore a few areas with you though.


It's alright, no worries insha Allaah.


Okay, but why does this website say differently? (written by Dr. Zakir Naik):

There were other personal collections of the portions of the Qur’an that people had with them. These might have been incomplete and with mistakes. Uthman (R.A.) only appealed to the people to destroy all these copies, which did not match the original manuscript of the Qur’an in order to preserve the original text of the Qur’an.
I've stated in my above post (maybe you missed it because i added more to it [maybe when you started replying].) I stated:


- Qatada - said:
Some of the personal copies which were burnt may have had notes on i.e. Abdullah ibn Mas'ud (a famous companion of Allaah's Messenger) had a personal copy which he writ himself, but he had also written the Prophetic sayings which he had heard also on the copy for his own personal notes, yet if someone was to read these in the future - then they may have mistaken it for Qur'an. Therefore this also was burnt.



Have you heard of the Alaama Siyootee and Mulla Ali Qari regarding Quranic text collections? Can you explain their significance?


I havn't heard of them, sorry.


Plus, does this (below) have any truth to it?
According to tradition, the next step was taken under ‘Uthman (644-656). One of ‘Uthman’s generals asked the caliph to make such a collection because serious disputes had broken out among his troops from different provinces in regard to the correct readings of the Koran. ‘Uthman chose Zayd ibn Thabit to prepare the official text. Zayd, with the help of three members of noble Meccan families, carefully revised the Koran comparing his version with the "leaves" in the possession of Hafsa, ‘Umar’s daughter; and as instructed, in case of difficulty as to the reading, Zayd followed the dialect of the Quraysh, the Prophet’s tribe. The copies of the new version, which must have been completed between 650 and ‘Uthman’s death in 656, were sent to Kufa, Basra, Damascus, and perhaps Mecca, and one was, of course, kept in Medina. All other versions were ordered to be destroyed.​
This is explained here:
The Qur'an continued to be read according to the seven ahruf until midway through Caliph 'Uthman's rule when some confusion arose in the outlying provinces concerning the Qur'an's recitation. Some Arab tribes had began to boast about the superiority of their ahruf and a rivalry began to develop. At the same time, some new Muslims also began mixing the various forms of recitation out of ignorance. Caliph 'Uthman decided to make official copies of the Qur'an according to the dialect of the Quraysh and send them along with the Qur'anic reciters to the major centres of Islam. This decision was approved by Sahaabah [companions] and all unofficial copies of the Qur'an were destroyed. Following the distribution of the official copies, all the other ahruf were dropped and the Qur'an began to be read in only one harf. Thus, the Qur'an which is available through out the world today is written and recited only according to the harf of Quraysh.
[8] Ibid., pp. 28-29.

The different troops from different provinces may have not known of the different dialects of the Qur'an and therefore confusion may have arised amongst them. Some even mixed up the different styles of recitation which caused them confusion (at Uthman's time, Islaam had spread really far in the world, there were many native speakers) and therefore to stop the confusion - Uthman [a successor and companion of Allaah's Messenger] compiled it in the Qurayshi dialect so there was less confusion amongst the people. Especially to those who were knew in entering Islaam.

Does this quote not reveal that some people strongly disputed concerning the definite Quranic text? The claim in the original post was that Muslims learned the Quran straight from Muhammad or from the people whom he trained. Had that been the case, all people would have learned the very same Quran. The difference should be merely concerning a number of people knowing a smaller amount of it compared to others. Since the disputes are of a serious nature therefore they are about differing Quranic texts and not just about dialects and number of suras and verses.


If you've read the above, or even the basic position on this. We've stated that the Qur'an was in 7 different dialects, therefore there would be differences, and those who were new to this and ignorant of the concept - they were confused. Why? Because there were new muslims who may not have even understood the concept of dialects since not all of them were arabs. Nor were all the people literate, therefore they may have been confused if one was to recite in a slightly different manner. This is the main reason why Uthman actually compiled it under the Qurayshi dialect - to unite the people.


Apparently, it was more than just a pronunciation thing. If that were the case, it would only have been an uncomplicated mission of replicating Hafsa's version and distributing it. But he didn't do that, did he? He formed a group to evaluate it with other versions. This shows that the disparity was more than mere pronunciation or spelling as you would have us believe wouldn’t it? Or am I possibly missing something? Please correct me if I am.


I think i'll give an example since it seems you're abit confused;


As one can see, the different recitations are almost completely identical except for a few words which are pronounced differently. For example,
Hafs: wa hûwa al-azîz al-hakîm
Qaloon: wahwa al-azîz al-hakîm

Translation: And He is the AllMighty, the AllWise.
The meaning is the same, however the pronunciation is slightly different. Since the different tribes had different dialects.

Therefore it may have been that one companion heard one dialect, whereas another may have heard another which was similar in meaning, yet slightly different in pronunciation.



Could you also explain how we can differentiate between authentic hadiths’s and unauthentic ones? I am taking classes on Islamic history and religious practice at a local university currently along with other philosophy courses and from Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 467:
'By the night as it envelops 'By the day as it appears in brightness; By (Him Who created) male and the female.' (92.1-3) Abu Ad-Darda' then said to me, "Did you hear it (like this) from the mouth of your friend ('Abdullah bin Mas'ud)?" I said, "Yes." He said, "I too, heard it (like this) from the mouth of the Prophet, but these people do not consider this recitation as the correct one."​
I havn't encountered that hadith before, maybe you could clarify who 'these people' are? I don't have access to Fath Al Baari (an explanation of Sahih Al Bukhari by Ibn Hajar Al Asqalaani) - so if you could get hold of that, it may give an explanation to the hadith you quoted. However, i'm not sure therefore i'm sorry that i'm unable to answer that question.

In regard to the rules on authenticity of ahadith, you may want to refer to this link:

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-sources/37234-rules-governing-criticism-hadeeth.html



Is that being totaly honest? I have heard numerous times on this site that the only true way to understand the Quran is by understanding Arabic, and the arabic culture. Does this not restrict 80% of Muslims from understanding the Quran properly since you can "never translate it" 100% showing its meaning?


The point the brother was making is the fact that the ways of Qur'an are applicable to any place and anytime, it's nothing to do with translating it. Nor is the Qur'an for the arab race only, it isn't from arab culture. Infact, alot of the pre-ignorant practises of the arabs were replaced by Islamic laws and practises. So it's not all to do with arabic culture. Culture is different to religion, yet culture is permitted so long as it doesn't contradict Islaam - our submission to Allaah.




If you want to read more on this topic, you can refer to this link:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Qiraat/hafs.html




And Allaah knows best.




Regards.
 
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Some of the personal copies which were burnt may have had notes on i.e. Abdullah ibn Mas'ud (a famous companion of Allaah's Messenger) had a personal copy which he writ himself, but he had also written the Prophetic sayings which he had heard also on the copy for his own personal notes, yet if someone was to read these in the future - then they may have mistaken it for Qur'an. Therefore this also was burnt. Which proves that it wasn't the Qur'an which was in error, rather it was the people who may have misunderstood.
Well did Dr. Naik not say there were “mistakes” not merely instances where mistakes could have been made? Also, can you please provide a source or more in-depth reading that I could do on this specific subject that you are telling me of? Thank you in advance.

This is explained here:
The Qur'an continued to be read according to the seven ahruf until midway through Caliph 'Uthman's rule when some confusion arose in the outlying provinces concerning the Qur'an's recitation. Some Arab tribes had began to boast about the superiority of their ahruf and a rivalry began to develop. At the same time, some new Muslims also began mixing the various forms of recitation out of ignorance. Caliph 'Uthman decided to make official copies of the Qur'an according to the dialect of the Quraysh and send them along with the Qur'anic reciters to the major centres of Islam. This decision was approved by Sahaabah [companions] and all unofficial copies of the Qur'an were destroyed. Following the distribution of the official copies, all the other ahruf were dropped and the Qur'an began to be read in only one harf. Thus, the Qur'an which is available through out the world today is written and recited only according to the harf of Quraysh.
[8] Ibid., pp. 28-29.
1. Does this book cite or source any of these claims? Or are these possible explanations to what could have happened. How do we know that the above is this case based on Islamic texts?

2. Is it true that when Uthman standardized the Quran, there were no vowels?

Plus, let us assume for now that Hafsa's version is the perfect and definitive version. And hence this would mean that Hafsa's version was already in the Quraishiite form. However, it appears not. Since, Uthman had to instruct the scribes:
Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue."​
How can there be disagreement when Hafsa's version was "perfect", and hence, through proof by contradiction, can we assume that Hafsa's version was perfect in the first place?

The point I am trying to make, my friend is not that the Quran is corrupt. I would not know that for sure, nor do I not think anyone can. However, the trouble with Quranic exposure and the collection of it is that there is only hearsay through and through and that is not sufficient to prove the claim of the original poster.

Important: Can you read this article and comment on it for me?

[link removed]

Thanks you in advance for all your time and help. You should consider being an Imaam, or working for a religious organization because you have a huge amount of knowledge in that head of yours. You are a smart guy my friend!
 
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rav said:
Well did Dr. Naik not say there were “mistakes” not merely instances where mistakes could have been made? Also, can you please provide a source or more in-depth reading that I could do on this specific subject that you are telling me of? Thank you in advance.

It would be really useful if you could bring the relevant points or evidences for the claim. Since Zakir Naik may say many things, but we don't always know what he's referring to.

I've done a little research, and i'll quote the following:


The Qur'an copy of Abdullah Ibn Mas`ud, had different (variant readings) from almost all other copies. I'll quote some examples.

An example of different pronunciation in Surah Al Baqarah:

2: 70 Ibn Mas'ud reads al-baqira in place ofal-baqara

An example of different spellings in Surah Al Baqarah:

2: 19 He reads kullama in place of kullama

I'm unsure how the website was able to quote this, however it is from Answering-Christianity.com. And they are trustworthy in quoting Islamic evidences. It may have been clarified to Ibn Mas'ud and he explained this to others later during his lifetime, which got passed down in history? Allaah knows best.



1. Does this book cite or source any of these claims? Or are these possible explanations to what could have happened. How do we know that the above is this case based on Islamic texts?


The book may have sources on where the author got his information from.[which is likely to have chains of narrations from the classical Islamic history books.]

If he (the author) really wanted to make assumptions, then he could have done so. But i think he would have stated that as an assumption if that was his intention. However, he portrayed it as a fact. Therefore it is likely to be a fact and an event within our history.



2. Is it true that when Uthman standardized the Quran, there were no vowels?

His solution to the second peculiarity -- the absence of vowels -- was to send a Qari (recitor) along with the copy of the Qur'an to preserve the correct reading that the hundreds of companions had learnt from the Prophet. This was clearly not a satisfactory solution. Later, at the insistence of Zayd, the Governor of Basrah (45-53 H), dots were assigned as vowel points. Then during the reign of Abdul Malik (65-85 H.) Hajjaj bin Yusuf appointed scholars to assign new symbols for vowels while dots were used to distinguish different letters...

(Dr. Ahmad Shafaat, 2000, "Journal of the Muslim Research Institute", Canada)



Plus, let us assume for now that Hafsa's version is the perfect and definitive version. And hence this would mean that Hafsa's version was already in the Quraishiite form. However, it appears not. Since, Uthman had to instruct the scribes:
Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue."
How can there be disagreement when Hafsa's version was "perfect", and hence, through proof by contradiction, can we assume that Hafsa's version was perfect in the first place?



To say that Hafsa's version was perfect 'therefore it could only be in the Qurayshi dialect form' is wrong. Since any of the 7 dialects can be authentic and perfect.


Acceptance of Variant Readings

Variant Readings can be accepted if they meet the following criteria for acceptance:
  1. A reading with correct Arabic grammar
  2. Traced back to the Prophet (pbuh)
  3. Agreement with the Uthmanic text
Further more, the variant readings should also meet the following criteria for preference:
  1. A reading with correct Arabic grammar
  2. Agreement with the Uthmanic text
  3. Reported/preferred by the majority
Further more, the variant readings can be divided as follows (taken from von Denffer's "Ulum al Qur'an"):
  1. The mutawatir (transmitted by many; they include the seven well-known readings)
  2. The ahad (transmitted by one, they number three, going back to the sahaba and together with the seven make up ten).
  3. The shadh (exceptional; they go back to the tabi'un only)
From the above, the current text of the Qur'an (Uthmanic), is mutawatir.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/quran_textual-reply.html#5c


Therefore it may have been that the version which Hafsah (may Allaah be pleased with her) had is another dialect (to the Qurayshi one.) If you were to ask me if it is the Qurayshi dialect or another dialect, i would say i don't know. Since i need to do the research myself, and for now i am unable to find out whether it was the Qurayshi dialect or another.


So if you were to say that it's the Qurayshi dialect, i'd be happy if you could bring proof for that please. If not, then i am in a similar position. And again, just to clarify - for it to be in any of the 7 dialects is sufficient to make it perfect, since they are all tawaatir narrations (i.e. narrated by many people, to the extent that they couldn't have all lied upon it together.)


Thanks you in advance for all your time and help. You should consider being an Imaam, or working for a religious organization because you have a huge amount of knowledge in that head of yours. You are a smart guy my friend!



I am simply a layman, yet alone a student of knowledge. Thankyou for your kind words however.


I have removed that site which you linked to, since that rejects ahadith and its authentic sciences altogether in ignorance. They reject the life story of Allaah's Messenger and our rich Islamic history, claiming that it is hearsy, and if they feel that this is wrong - then they've lost nearly all their religion altogether. So i wouldn't refer to that site if you want to understand Islaam.



And Allaah knows best.




Regards.
 
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It would be really useful if you could bring the relevant points or evidences for the claim. Since Zakir Naik may say many things, but we don't always know what he's referring to.

I believe he was refering to other Quran copies that differed. Dr. Naik wrote, "There were other personal collections of the portions of the Qur’an that people had with them. These might have been incomplete and with mistakes. Uthman (R.A.) only appealed to the people to destroy all these copies, which did not match the original manuscript of the Qur’an"

The book may have sources on where the author got his information from.[which is likely to have chains of narrations from the classical Islamic history books.]

If he (the author) really wanted to make assumptions, then he could have done so. But i think he would have stated that as an assumption if that was his intention. However, he portrayed it as a fact. Therefore it is likely to be a fact and an event within our history.

If I find time one day I will look into seeing if the book is at a library, if I am already there.

I'm unsure how the website was able to quote this, however it is from Answering-Christianity.com. And they are trustworthy in quoting Islamic evidences.

I would hope they are more responsible when quoting Islamic sources than when quoting Jewish sources which they butcher.

I have removed that site which you linked to, since that rejects ahadith and its authentic sciences altogether in ignorance. They reject the life story of Allaah's Messenger and our rich Islamic history, claiming that it is hearsy, and if they feel that this is wrong - then they've lost nearly all their religion altogether. So i wouldn't refer to that site if you want to understand Islaam.

I thought the website was an Islamic one. I have not seen anything on the site that says it is not. They believe in the Quran etc, but admit the fact that there are other copies that had to be burned etc.

When I have more time I will look deeper into some of the info in your post. Until then - peace.
 
I guess I should ask why do you think that the Koran is unchanged?
Is it due to man or god? If it is because of god then why did god not keep his message pure with his prior prophets? I have a couple questions.
Do the original texts actually exists or are there just copies? How many times of Chinese whispering occurred before it was written down? What about the non Koran bits, the hadiths etc..

And now to a posts.


1. The Power of the Qur'anic Message:
-it is universal, unrestricted by time and applicable to any nation/culture. The Qur'an is by far the most widely followed and acted-upon book in the world. As for the Bible, most Christians follow the Church over the Bible, and each denomination has its own bible anyway. The fact that there is no other book in the world that forms the constitution of the lives of billions of followers is itself a sign.



How can the message be universal if it cant be translated perfectly? Why must you have scholars tell you what it means? Why do so many disagree with it? And your last sentence seems to be untrue. Please support it.

-it is practical and logical, it can be established practically in society and is logically able to address the fundamental questions relating to all aspects of our universe.
It does not seem practical and seems illogical in many instances.


-it is comprehensive, addressing all fundamental sectors of human life, be it spritual, physical, mental, social/societal, politcal, environmental, economic, etc.
No it doesn’t, if it did you would not need hadiths would you? And even those are not.

-it is natural, in concordance with a person's nature and what they feel deep inside to be the truth.
nope.

-it is clear and consistent, free of the changes in worldview and understanding that dominate the works of human beings.
It is so clear you have to have scholars tell you what it means.

-it is deep, having provoked thousands upon thousands of volumes of exegesis, expounding upon its meaning and revealing fascinating details that many people otherwise miss in their reading of the Qur'an.
Deep? So is shakespear. The bible etc…. deepness does not a holy book make.


2. The Power of the Qur'anic Style:
-it is Interactive,

Evidence? Ive read it and got no such interaction.

-it is Inerrant, free from contradictons and discrepancies, or other errors that would normally be found in the works of human beings.
Except it is not.

-it is Memorizable;
Wow just like the abcs, the bible, shakespear, the princes bride, etc…

-its Language, ..
Wow its soo cool god could not translate it perfectly inot other languages and even modern speakers have to have scholars tell them what it means.

3. The Power of the Qur'anic Text:
-it is Preserved, even after fourteen and a half centuries, the Qur'an is recited today exactly as it was first revealed. Thus it was free of the tampering that befell other religious scriptures.


The current version perhaps. Do you have the originals? And what about prior to it being written down? How many Chinese whispers did it go through?

-its other Remarkable features; many Muslims find a striking concordance between many Qur'anic statements and established scientific truths, ….
This has been discussed to death, but to sum it up. There is no special knowledge in the Koran, any actual knowledge was known at the time. Anything else is reading what is not there.


-its Authorship; the context in which the Qur'an was revealed leaves the reader with no other conclusion than the fact that it could only be the word of God.
Evidence? John smith also had it revealed. Same with jesus. What about the religion of the GFSM? Scientology? Buddhism ect…
 
hi, ranma1/2

sorry to Interfere
want 2 comment on some of ur points.
i do not read all ur comments thou.

I guess I should ask why do you think that the Koran is unchanged?
Is it due to man or god? If it is because of god then why did god not keep his message pure with his prior prophets?
Why thier is hair in our head instead of leaves.
U know I can question millions of questions like that.

Look Mr. U r human one of the creature of the earth. Difference between other creatures to us is we have free thinking capacities and growing knowledge. There are uncountable amount of frame beyond ur seeing and knowledge. We human just question too much.

Look our Creator usually do not interfere on our way of thinking, knowledge.

The Final message Holy Quran was sent on the most appropriate time of the earth. And prove is The Holy Quran is preserve in the millions of people’s heart, and in books by generations still today InsAllah in the future people will preserve IT perfectly with their own way of thinking and knowledge.

People do not have their own way of thinking and knowledge to preserve and understand all the message of his Creator before the Quran was revealed. When they earn those criteria Our Creator sent his Fianl message. (Allah knows the best)

ranma1/2 said:
How can the message be universal if it cant be translated perfectly? Why must you have scholars tell you what it means? Why do so many disagree with it? And your last sentence seems to be untrue. Please support it.
Pls give me any alternative option that on which language Quran should reveal. Then I may comment on this question. [Think u r a creator of something (Calculator) and u want to reveal ur law (software program and manual) to ur creation
on which way and language u will reveal ur law? think ... give me a ans
ranma1/2 said:
It does not seem practical and seems illogical in many instances.
U know
Some enjoy killing
Some enjoy robbing
Some enjoy mischiefing
Some enjoy annoying other
Some enjoy piousness of heart
Some enjoy doing stand firm on justice.
Many people many mind

And u know if world will gone a run with ur concept than this world will be collapsed. U need explanation I give u insAllah.

If I believe there is no God.
I will rob who r u to stop me I have one life and I want to do whatever my mind says.
I will kill who r u to stop me I have one life and I want to do whatever my mind says.
I will rape who r u to stop me I have one life and I want to do whatever my mind says.
Will go on and on.
Think pls…

There must be a one general Law to all of us which is most fair and just.
There must be one final stoppage where we all have to stop for the ultimate justification.

Otherwise the civilization of the world will collapse.
 
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Im not sure if i should reply, please try to avoid l33t speak and such. it makes it annoying to read. Also I find it hard to understand your points.
If you dont understand why we have hair instead of leaves then please read a basic book on biology.

hi, ranma1/2

....

Pls give me any alternative option that on which language Quran should reveal. ....on which way and language u will reveal ur law? think ... give me a ans
....
.
Well if i were god i would have done a better job of getting my message across. How many thousand prophets did alah send? And still he hasnt gotten his message across. Heck different prophet factions have shown up and fight each other. "jews, christians, muslims etc..."

Holy book wise i would have made a holy book for everyone. Its magic since im god and all. It will be read perfectly by all even thosethat cant read would understand my word perfectly. Free will would still be there "as best as it can be if im all knowing and all" since they could choose what they wanted to do, but there would be zero doubt as to if i exists.
Thats just one basic option.

....If I believe there is no God.
I will rob who r u to stop me I have one life and I want to do whatever my mind says.
I will kill who r u to stop me I have one life and I want to do whatever my mind says.
I will rape who r u to stop me I have one life and I want to do whatever my mind says.
Will go on and on.
.
If you believe this to be true then please kill yourself or at the very least move away from society. Of course this is not true. I myself believe there are no gods. And i dont rob, kill etc... One basic reason is I like living. And who would stop you? Well society for one. Even in a "lawless" one you have to worry about others deaming you a threat.

There must be a one general Law to all of us which is most fair and just.
There must be one final stoppage where we all have to stop for the ultimate justification.

Otherwise the civilization of the world will collapse.

And what is this law? And why must there be one? Civilization hasnt dont that well under any god. "although the GFSM is likley our best option."
 
I believe he was refering to other Quran copies that differed. Dr. Naik wrote, "There were other personal collections of the portions of the Qur’an that people had with them. These might have been incomplete and with mistakes. Uthman (R.A.) only appealed to the people to destroy all these copies, which did not match the original manuscript of the Qur’an"



I still won't fully understand this concept unless it's explained further with proofs, or maybe with proof to clarify what dialect the copy of Hafsa (may Allaah be pleased with her) was.

If I find time one day I will look into seeing if the book is at a library, if I am already there.


Alright, kool.


I would hope they are more responsible when quoting Islamic sources than when quoting Jewish sources which they butcher.


I stated in the post:

And they are trustworthy in quoting Islamic evidences.


I know the stuff which is mentioned about other religions is controversial, however i specifically stated that it quoted 'trustworthy Islamic evidences.' - according to my knowledge.

If you feel that it was my intention to take a cheap shot, then that wasn't my intention at all. Rather it had many explanations to the doubts which others have in regard to the issue that we're discussing right now. And that's the reason why i linked to it.



I thought the website was an Islamic one. I have not seen anything on the site that says it is not. They believe in the Quran etc, but admit the fact that there are other copies that had to be burned etc.


I think you as a Jew should understand the concept of the 'oral tradition' and any Jew who doesn't accept that has lost a huge part of their religion. The same can be said about the people who reject the Sunnah (Prophetic example and teachings.)




When I have more time I will look deeper into some of the info in your post. Until then - peace.


Alright, it's ok.




Peace.
 
Ranma, your former questions have been addressed here:

http://www.islamicboard.com/785553-post51.html



Well if i were god i would have done a better job of getting my message across. How many thousand prophets did alah send? And still he hasnt gotten his message across. Heck different prophet factions have shown up and fight each other. "jews, christians, muslims etc..."


Do you understand the concept of Prophets? The many Prophets who came to their own people to make the message clear to them. This was done on a minor scale, especially when humanity wasn't all directly connected to one another. I.e. the people in China probably didn't even know that the people of Aztecs lived maybe a few milleniums ago. So each Prophet was sent to a certain people at his nations scale.

Some accepted, others rejected. Those who rejected their Messenger usually went to the extent that they would harm and torture the believers, and due to the excessive wrongdoings of the disbelievers - Allaah would destroy them and allow the believers to settle in the lands after them for a temporary while.


Then Allaah will raise them up on the Day of Judgement and judge them on what they differed, and no-one will be dealt unjustly. Those who believed and did good works will be rewarded for their good by Allaah, and those who disbelieved - they will have no-one but themselves to blame, when the clear proofs came to them they rejected and turned away arrogantly. So Allaah will reject them on that Day the same way they rejected Him in this life. And those who are truthful will benefit from their truth, whereas those who belied Allaah's message will have no-one except themselves to blame.


So to say that ALL these Prophets had to come to repeat the same message - because Allaah couldn't portray it - is false. Since the people among them were successful, whereas there were losers amongst them also (i.e. those who denied the message.) Allaah however sent the final Message to His final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) for the whole world uptill the final hour, and after him there would be no more Messengers.



Holy book wise i would have made a holy book for everyone. Its magic since im god and all. It will be read perfectly by all even thosethat cant read would understand my word perfectly. Free will would still be there "as best as it can be if im all knowing and all" since they could choose what they wanted to do, but there would be zero doubt as to if i exists.
Thats just one basic option.


Allaah says (translation of the meaning):
And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. Verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge.
[Qur'an 30: 22]


Yes, Allaah could send the Qur'an in one language. But He has created the world in a way that we speak in different languages, so we are in different colours - and these are His signs for us. He sent His Messenger who was an 'arab, who was well known for his trustworthiness, and honesty.


I will quote what the companion of Allaah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said about him;

He said: "O King, we were a people in a state of ignorance and immorality, worshipping idols and eating the flesh of dead animals, committing all sorts of abomination and shameful deeds, breaking the ties of kinship, treating guests badly and the strong among us exploited the weak.

"We remained in this state until Allah sent us a Prophet, one of our own people whose lineage, truthfulness, trustworthiness and integrity were well-known to us. "He called us to worship Allah alone and to renounce the stones and the idols which we and our ancestors used to worship besides Allah.


"He commanded us to speak the truth, to honor our promises, to be kind to our relations, to be helpful to our neighbors, to cease all forbidden acts, to abstain from bloodshed, to avoid obscenities and false witness, not to appropriate an orphan's property nor slander chaste women.

"He ordered us to worship Allah alone and not to associate anything with him, to uphold Salat (the prayer), to give Zakat (the charity) and fast in the month of Ramadan.

"We believed in him and what he brought to us from Allah and we follow him in what he has asked us to do and we keep away from what he forbade us from doing.


"Thereupon, O King, our people attacked us, visited the severest punishment on us to make us renounce our religion and take us back to the old immorality and the worship of idols.

"They oppressed us, made life intolerable for us and obstructed us from observing our religion. So we left for your country, choosing you before anyone else, desiring your protection and hoping to live in Justice and in peace in your midst."​

This message spread over all the globe, and arabic was the most dominant language in the world uptill the late 18th century. It is the most eloquent of languages, the most powerful, and deep. It is the language which Allaah chose to convey the message to mankind. He is the Wise, All Knowing. So He knows best why He has revealed it in this tongue.


If you want to hear some Qur'an in arabic:
http://www.sabbir.com/DownloadHalal.html
http://quran.jalisi.com




If you believe this to be true then please kill yourself or at the very least move away from society. Of course this is not true. I myself believe there are no gods. And i dont rob, kill etc... One basic reason is I like living. And who would stop you? Well society for one. Even in a "lawless" one you have to worry about others deaming you a threat.


Can you define for me what is exactly good and bad? Trust me i've had a loooooooooooong debate with someone just a few days back. So i'm all up for it if you want to use the argument that it's just what society percieves as good or bad.



And what is this law? And why must there be one? Civilization hasnt dont that well under any god. "although the GFSM is likley our best option."


Prove to me it hasn't? Infact, when Allaah's final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) recieved the message. He recieved laws which even surpass the morals of society today!

You can refer to this link for more info in regard to that:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/40557-rights-dhimmi-non-muslim-muslim-islamic-state.html


So if you want to say that Islaam hasn't freed mankind from the evil acts which take place in society, which were the norms at that time in history. If you want to say that Islamic civilization hasn't changed the world for the better, i can give you countless examples;

http://www.muslimheritage.com/




Regards.
 
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I still won't fully understand this concept unless it's explained further with proofs, or maybe with proof to clarify what dialect the copy of Hafsa (may Allaah be pleased with her) was.

The dialect of Hafsa’s Quran was not in the form the Quran is in today?

I know the stuff which is mentioned about other religions is controversial, however i specifically stated that it quoted 'trustworthy Islamic evidences.' - according to my knowledge.

If you feel that it was my intention to take a cheap shot, then that wasn't my intention at all. Rather it had many explanations to the doubts which others have in regard to the issue that we're discussing right now. And that's the reason why i linked to it.

Okay, no problem, you are a better judge on how they use Islamic sources than I am, I suppose.

I think you as a Jew should understand the concept of the 'oral tradition' and any Jew who doesn't accept that has lost a huge part of their religion. The same can be said about the people who reject the Sunnah (Prophetic example and teachings.)

I understand that concept, but I was under the impression that this website accepted the “Sunnah”. I did not read further into it.


Allaah says (translation of the meaning):
And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. Verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge.
[Qur'an 30: 22]

Yes, Allaah could send the Qur'an in one language. But He has created the world in a way that we speak in different languages, so we are in different colours - and these are His signs for us. He sent His Messenger who was an 'arab, who was well known for his trustworthiness, and honesty.

I'm sorry, but why is the entire world expected to believe Mohammad's message in arabic when the majority of the world does not speak arabic? Also, how can the message of the Quran be for all of mankind, when it was written in one specific langauge, using metaphors and such of that language which cannot be comprehended in other languages?

That it not the mark of a book that is meant for the whole world. Also, why was the Torah written in Hebrew than if the arabic language has such "deeper meaning" than all other language? Which by the way; I doubt such a claim.

Prove to me it hasn't? Infact, when Allaah's final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) recieved the message. He recieved laws which even surpass the morals of society today!

Are you defining morality?
 
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The dialect of Hafsa’s Quran was not in the form the Quran is in today?


I said i wanted to verify which dialect Hafsa's copy of Qur'an was in. I never stated that it was in another form of any sort.



I understand that concept, but I was under the impression that this website accepted the “Sunnah”. I did not read further into it.

It doesn't.



I'm sorry, but why is the entire world expected to believe Mohammad's message in arabic when the majority of the world does not speak arabic?


Allaah has sent it down as an arabic Qur'an, and even if people don't know the arabic language - they still can refer to translations of the meanings.

Like i stated in my earlier post, arabic was the dominant language in the world uptill the late 18th century. The same way English is today. Therefore anyone who is willing to understand the meaning of the Qur'an can do so, yet the Qur'an is only Qur'an i.e. in it's eloquence, depth etc. if it is in the arabic language.



Also, how can the message of the Quran be for all of mankind, when it was written in one specific langauge, using metaphors and such of that language which cannot be comprehended in other languages?


Even a student of knowledge who speaks arabic needs a teacher, so the verses aren't taken out of context and the explanation is clear. Therefore, having a teacher i.e. in the case of the companions of Allaah's Messenger, the Messenger of Allaah himself who taught it and it's interpretation.



That it not the mark of a book that is meant for the whole world. Also, why was the Torah written in Hebrew than if the arabic language has such "deeper meaning" than all other language?

The Torah was for the Children of Israeel during the times of the Prophets of the Children of Israeel. So any Prophet who was sent to his people made the message clear to them in their language.

And We sent not a Messenger except with the language of his people, in order that he might make (the Message) clear for them. Then Allah misleads whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.

[Qur'an 14: 4]


Which by the way; I doubt such a claim.


You've got the right to your opinion, and i have the right to mine. :)



Are you defining morality?


I know that what Allaah defines as morality is moral and ethical. Since He is the Wise, All Knowing.




Regards.
 
I said i wanted to verify which dialect Hafsa's copy of Qur'an was in. I never stated that it was in another form of any sort.

Shalom Aleikhem (Peace be upon you),

Okay, I would love to hear which dialect it is in when you discover the answer.

Even a student of knowledge who speaks arabic needs a teacher, so the verses aren't taken out of context and the explanation is clear. Therefore, having a teacher i.e. in the case of the companions of Allaah's Messenger, the Messenger of Allaah himself who taught it and it's interpretation.

I would say the need for a teacher, and the comprehension of an entire language and culture are far different. Every arabic speaker has a clear advantage in terms of studying the Quran. Islam basicaly says that all who do not accept the Quran will burn in hell for eternity, yet the factors of not understanding it, it seems is not taken into account. The things you label the Quran as which make it an obviously "divine" book, many of them require the person to know arabic. It seems unjust that the whole world is expected to follow the Quran though. Maybe we have differing opinions of justice though.
________

A question: When Uthman burned the other copies of the Quran which you label as other dialects of arabic; was it proper for Uthman to burn Qurans that were just as valid, but just different in arabic dialect? Is that how you dispose of a Quran; by burning it?

You've got the right to your opinion, and i have the right to mine.

Of course you do.

I know that what Allaah defines as morality is moral and ethical. Since He is the Wise, All Knowing.

As you said above, we all have a right to our own opinion, so I would beg to differ that G-d expects a different moral system than what some of the Quran tells us, although the Quran with its biblical influence, (and lets not argue about how Mohammad found such influence, please) has some ideas like no pork which the Torah promotes.

Civilization hasnt dont that well under any god.

The Peoples Republic of China and the Soviet Union have certainly not given any sort of good reputation for setting up an anti-religious goverment in this day and age, while America one of the greatest countries on earth has much of its laws and morals based on Biblical understandings of morality.
 
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Do you understand the concept of Prophets? The many Prophets who came to their own people to make the message clear to them. 。。

And it seems that he did a horrible job. I would have thought that with the many prophets he sent he would have gotten more results. How many again did he send? Who were they? Or is this all taken on faith?

Some accepted, others rejected. Those who rejected their Messenger usually went to the extent that they would harm and torture the believers, and due to the excessive wrongdoings of the disbelievers - Allaah would destroy them and allow the believers to settle in the lands after them for a temporary while.

Evidence? It seems very difficult to believe that a omnipotent being would have so much trouble. If I were a omnipotent being I would have easily done a better job.


Then Allaah will raise them up on the Day of Judgement and judge them on what they differed, and no-one will be dealt unjustly. Those who believed and did good works will be rewarded for their good by Allaah, and those who disbelieved - they will have no-one but themselves to blame, when the clear proofs came to them they rejected and turned away arrogantly. So Allaah will reject them on that Day the same way they rejected Him in this life. And those who are truthful will benefit from their truth, whereas those who belied Allaah's message will have no-one except themselves to blame.

So who decides what was a clear proof. I have not been given any clear proof. And talk about a selfish being. Remember what I considered good and bad? Once again just like the Christian religion all this is the carrot and stick method of gaining believers.
“listen officer I gave him a choice , his money or his life. He chose his life so I killed him. I gave him a choice officer, he chose to die.”

So to say that ALL these Prophets had to come to repeat the same message - because Allaah couldn't portray it - is false.

It seems to me that if your god was trying to get his message across it did a horrible job.

Yes, Allaah could send the Qur'an in “more than?” one language. But He has created the world in a way that we speak in different languages, so we are in different colours - and these are His signs for us. He sent His Messenger who was an 'arab, who was well known for his trustworthiness, and honesty.


Colours? British I take it? :)
This makes no sense, even I a humble and relavtivly stupid human can see that not sending down multiple translation would cause problems. Not to mention only having one messenger.
Lets just say for the sake of argument that his messenger was honest and trustworth “which we only have say so on this” he was relatively unknown outside of the Arabic world at the time so once again this would have been a poor plan. was it to difficult for god to make a better plan?


I will quote what the companion of Allaah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said about him;

….
This message spread over all the globe, and arabic was the most dominant language in the world uptill the late 18th century. link?
It is the most eloquent of languages, the most powerful, and deep. It is the language which Allaah chose to convey the message to mankind. He is the Wise, All Knowing. So He knows best why He has revealed it in this tongue.


And all of that is opinon. I find English to be a much more eloquent language and deeper as well. And once again with your allah knows best statement you are using circular logic. “how do we know that god wrote this? Well it says he said he did….”

Can you define for me what is exactly good and bad? Trust me i've had a loooooooooooong debate with someone just a few days back. So i'm all up for it if you want to use the argument that it's just what society percieves as good or bad.

Good and bad is subjective. For me in general I define good as selfless acts and bad as selfish acts. But in societies as you said good and bad is usually determined by those societes.

If you were born in germany and Christian during ww2 you would have likely been a nazi. If you were born white in the south in the past you could easily have been pro slavery or a member of the KKK. You could have burnt withes, you could have gone on crusades or Jihads etc… You could have been a cannibal. Etc..

Prove to me it hasn't?what again? Infact, when Allaah's final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) recieved the message. He recieved laws which even surpass the morals of society today!

Proof? No. but the evidence shows that the quran hasn’t surpassed the morals of society. Do you have evidence it has? And if he received these better morals then why did he marry a 9 year old?

You can refer to this link for more info in regard to that:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...mic-state.html (The Rights of a Dhimmi (non muslim) & Muslim in an Islamic State.)


Where is this mentioned in the quran? And what does this have to do with morals?


So if you want to say that Islam hasn't freed mankind from the evil acts which take place in society, which were the norms at that time in history. If you want to say that Islamic civilization hasn't changed the world for the better, i can give you countless examples;
Please do. Or are you just going to list science that was not inspired by the quran?
What does Islamic civilization have to do with it anymore than Chinese, American etc…?_ We are talking about the quran not misc muslims that may have made a discovery. Imagine what the would be like without electricity. The light bulb. The car etc…..So I’m not sure what your point about is.
Now with your point of Islam freeing mankind from the evil acts please provide evidence.
 

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