Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)'s smashing of 360 idols in Mecca

[Anam 27]

Hello everyone,

We had a Malay Chinese Buddhist Professor visit our University some days back, she returns to Malaysia tomorrow. She is a Professor of Religious studies at some University there, in a very short conversation with her, I realised that she has some negative opinions about Islam. She also has pretty unfavorable opinions about the Malay majority in her nation.On learning my family background, she remarked that one shouldn't marry Muslim men. I personally have nothing against marrying Muslim men, as it happens I am engaged to a non practicing Anglican, but I have dated Muslims as well, & still am friends with a couple of my past Muslim boyfriends, I also have very good Muslim friends, of both sexes.

She claimed that it was Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)'s destruction of the 360 idols around the kaaba which causes Muslims like the Taliban to destroy Bamiyan Buddhas.

Personally I have nothing against idolatry, I love some Catholic & Orthodox idols & images, they're beautiful to look at, even though I am no longer Christian, I love their beauty, like I love some beautiful mosques around the world. I also feel people's religious beliefs(or lack of beliefs) need to be respected.I would condemn the destruction of any idolatrous site anywhere on earth-be it Christian, Hindu, Buddhist or Neopagan, like I would condemn the destruction of mosques.

How do Muslims explain this incident, I am interested to know so that I can give the Muslim perspective.

 

[aadil77]

How do we explain it? well kind of like how the zionists do when they destroyed and killed many muslims and their homes because of claiming to own the 'holy land'. The Kaabah is a house of Allah commanded by Allah to be built, it was built by Adam at first (muslims correct if I'm wrong) and then renovated by prophet Ibrahim. This is a house of Allah and no idols should be in it or even near it.

Do you know that prophet Muhammad is not the only prophet that has destroyed idols? Prophet Ibrahim has destroyed idols too, heres the story;

Ibrahim left his father's house and abandoned his people and what they worshipped. He decide to do something about their state of disbelief, but did not reveal it. He knew that there was going to be a great celebration on the other bank of the river which would be attended by all the people. Ibrahim waited until the city was empty, then came out cautiously, directing his steps towards the temple. the streets leading to it were empty and the temple itself was deserted for the priests had also gone to the festival outside the city.

Ibrahim went there carrying a sharp axe. He looked at the stone and wood statues of the gods and at the food laid in front of them as offerings. He approached one of the statues and asked: "The food in front of you is getting cold. Why don't you eat?" the statue kept silent and rigid. Ibrahim asked all the other statues around him:"Will you not eat of the offering before you?" (37:91)

He was mocking them for he knew they would not eat. He once again asked then: "What is the matter with you that you do not speak?" (37:92)

he then raised his axe and started smashing the false gods worshipped by the people. He destroyed them all except one on whose neck he hung the axe. After this his anger subsides and he felt at peace. He left the temple. He had fulfilled his vow to show his people a practical proof of their foolishness in worshipping something other than All.

When the people returned, they were shocked to see their gods smashed to pieces, lying scattered all over the temple. They began to guess who had done that to their idols and Ibrahim's name came to their minds.

Allah the Almighty said: they said: "Who has done this to our aliah (gods)? He must indeed be one of the wrongdoers." They said: "We heard a young man talking against them who is called Ibrahim." They said: "Then bring him before the eyes of the people, that they may testify." they said: "Are you the one who has done this to our gods, O Ibrahim?" Ibrahim said: "nay, this one, the biggest of them (idols) did it, Ask them, if they can speak!"

SO they turned to themselves and said: "Verily you are the Zalimun (polytheists, and wrongdoers)." Then they turned to themselves (their first thought and said): "Indeed you (Ibrahim) know well that these idols speak not?" Ibrahim said: "DO you then worship besides Allah, things that can neither profit you nor harm you? If upon you, and upon that which you worship besides Allah! Have you then no sense?" (21:59-67 Quran)

 

[Anam 27]

How do we explain it? well kind of like how the zionists do when they destroyed and killed many muslims and their homes because of claiming to own the 'holy land'. The Kaabah is a house of Allah commanded by Allah to be built, it was built by Adam at first (muslims correct if I'm wrong) and then renovated by prophet Ibrahim. This is a house of Allah and no idols should be in it or even near it.

Do you know that prophet Muhammad is not the only prophet that has destroyed idols? Prophet Ibrahim has destroyed idols too, heres the story;

Hello aadil77,

I have mentioned before that I was raised Christian so I do know the story of Abraham as its there in the Bible, I know the story as its there in the Quran too.

I am agnostic today so I do not believe in any god\s or religions, I personally do not believe in many gods, nor do I claim that there's a single god. I do respct people's rights to their religion, be it worshipping many gods, one god or no god. I would no more support the destruction of idols than I would support the destruction of mosques or synagogues.

As I said, this issue was raised to me by a fellow Professor, I hadn't thought much about it before, although I knew it, now that she mentioned it, it seems like something questionable to me too.

Well, if the kaaba was built by Ibrahim, whats' the proof that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) showed the pagans? Concrete proof, not vague claims please. I know that some Muslims claim there're footprints there, were those footprints matched with Ibrahim's?

Also, if the kaaba was built by Ibrahim, why didn't the Jews object to the idols there? Ibrahim story is a story of the Jews, but Jews lived in religious peace with the pagans, they even intermarried like Kaab ibn al Ashraf's Jewish mother & pagan father, & the children were raised Jewish as halacha states. Kaab became the leader of a Jewish tribe, pardon me if I'm wrong, but I don't see Jews killing pagans or vice versa over the kaaba.

Another thing, even if its true that the kaaba was built by Ibrahim, why didn't Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) ask the idolators to remove their idols elsewhere? They could have removed them.

As an agnostic, I don't believe in any God\s, idols or mosques-but I won't want to see others' beliefs hurt, they would certainly be hurt if someone destroyed their idols. My grandma has a beautiful idol of Mother Mary & baby Jesus, every night she prays before it,as a child I would pray in front of it before my examinations, I don't believe in these stuff anymore, but I know that my grandmother would be extremely saddened if someone destroyed it, just like I know that my father would be extremely upset & outraged if someone tears or burns his Quran.

I believe in neither, but I think the beliefs of both deserve respect.

Respectfully,
Anam

 

[aadil77]

Well, if the kaaba was built by Ibrahim, whats' the proof that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) showed the pagans? Concrete proof, not vague claims please.

When did I say prophet Muhammad told the pagans? I don't think he told them prophet Ibrahim built it, but why would he have to? If they're pagans why would they care about prophet Ibrahim and whether he rebuilt it? the kaabah is a house of Allah and there are not supposed to be any idols inside it.

I know that some Muslims claim there're footprints there, were those footprints matched with Ibrahim's?

Ive never heard of any footprints, but the black stone is what prophet Ibrahim stood on whilst building the kaabah

Also, if the kaaba was built by Ibrahim, why didn't the Jews object to the idols there?

There were no jews is makkah only madinah, jews have been known to be cowards and they've worshipped idols themselves

Ibrahim story is a story of the Jews, but Jews lived in religious peace with the pagans, they even intermarried like Kaab ibn al Ashraf's Jewish mother & pagan father, & the children were raised Jewish as halacha states.

Whats intermarrying between jews and arabs got to do with this?

Kaab became the leader of a Jewish tribe, pardon me if I'm wrong, but I don't see Jews killing pagans or vice versa over the kaaba.

Who killed pagans over the kaabah, Are you trying to suggest something?

Another thing, even if its true that the kaaba was built by Ibrahim, why didn't Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) ask the idolators to remove their idols elsewhere? They could have removed them.

Why would they remove them? If was part of their beliefs to keep them in the kaabah.

As an agnostic, I don't believe in any God\s, idols or mosques-but I won't want to see others' beliefs hurt, they would certainly be hurt if someone destroyed their idols.

Well he was hurt when they tried many times to kill him, the prophet was very tolerent but if people start a war on you then you have the right to retaliate, so he and the companions simply conquered makkah and got rid of the filthy idols from inside the kaabah and that was it.

My grandma has a beautiful idol of Mother Mary & baby Jesus, every night she prays before it,as a child I would pray in front of it before my examinations, I don't believe in these stuff anymore, but I know that my grandmother would be extremely saddened if someone destroyed it, just like I know that my father would be extremely upset & outraged if someone tears or burns his Quran.

Yeh well if you place that idol in a mosque you can expect it to get destroyed

I believe in neither, but I think the beliefs of both deserve respect.

Respectfully,
Anam

thank you, you're welcome to come and attack islam whenever you want

 

[Anam 27]

Hello aadil 77,

It seems that I have offended you with my questions, my sincerest apologies for that. I am, as I said, an irreligious person, this is something that my fellow Professor told me, I thought I might ask it here. I am not a believer in Islam or any other religion.

When did I say prophet Muhammad told the pagans? I don't think he told them prophet Ibrahim built it, but why would he have to? If they're pagans why would they care about prophet Ibrahim and whether he rebuilt it? the kaabah is a house of Allah and there are not supposed to be any idols inside it.

I know that they're pagans but for me as an agnostic, pagans have the same rights to freedom of religion that Muslims have, Christians have, Jews have or the same right to freedom from religion that non believers have.

I don't believe in Allah anymore than I believe in idol gods, but I am asking this regarding freedom of religion.

Ive never heard of any footprints, but the black stone is what prophet Ibrahim stood on whilst building the kaabah

With due respect aadil, I think anyone can claim anything about God or gods, they're unverifiable claims. The pagans too could have claimed that their idols represent gods found in Heaven, they're praying to God's earthly images, I have seen Christians, Hindus etc do this. When my grandma prays before idols, this is what she claims.

There were no jews is makkah only madinah, jews have been known to be cowards and they've worshipped idols themselves

I don't see why worshipping idols is "cowardice" its a personal choice to worship whatever or whosoever one pleases.Same with worshipping no god, would you say that my mother & grandmother are cowards because they revere idols of Jesus & Mary? Or I am a coward because I worship no God? I personally think that we're all intelligent human beings who worship whatever we choose to.

Whats intermarrying between jews and arabs got to do with this?

Nothing, I was just saying that they had no religious conflicts before, if the Jews too had believed that the kaaba was built by Abrahim, they in all probability should have objected to this site being used for polytheistic purposes, they didn't.

Who killed pagans over the kaabah, Are you trying to suggest something?

Please don't be offended without reason aadil, I am not trying to suggest anything at all, all I say is that, Jews & pagans had co existed peaceful previously, neither objected to the others religious rituals, they intermarried, for that matter, there was no prohibition on conversion to Christianity either, as Waraqa ibn Nawfal shows us. If the Jews had seriously believed that the kaaba was built by Abraham, they might have wanted to stop idolatry & polytheism there,they didn't.

As I asked you, you have shown no proof that it was built by Ibrahim, its only belief, exactly like pagan belief in idolatry, or atheist belief in no god.

Why would they remove them? If was part of their beliefs to keep them in the kaabah.

But Prophet Muhammad could have asked them to do this all the same, they might or might not have done this, in which case he could've smashed them. As an analogy, if someone enters into a Church with a Quran & begins reciting from it in the Church, I think its best to ask the individual to leave his book behind & come back, or leave the Church, rather than burning the Quran.

Well he was hurt when they tried many times to kill him, the prophet was very tolerent but if people start a war on you then you have the right to retaliate, so he and the companions simply conquered makkah and got rid of the filthy idols from inside the kaabah and that was it.

I would not call anyone's idols filthy aadil, same as I wouldn't call a mosque or Quran filthy. As I said, people's religious beliefs or lack thereof need to be respected. I know that people have the right to retaliate, but that doesn't include a right to destroy others' religious sites, or holy texts, for eg if Muslims attack a country today, non Muslims do have a right to retaliate, but that doesn't mean they have a right to burn all copies of the Quran or break down all mosques, then ask people to leave Islam. I think everyone has religious rights, & this is a violation of people's religious rights. Even people who have attacked you have basic rights, including rights to freedom of religion.

Yeah well if you place that idol in a mosque you can expect it to get destroyed.

I realise this, but the kaaba wasn't a mosque then, it was a place of idolatrous worship, believers believed that its a place for worshipping their idols. I asked you to show me proof that it was built by Ibrahim, you didn't do that, in the absence of proof & the Jews' non objection to idolatry there, pagans could well believe that its their religious site.

I don't believe that my house is a mosque, it contains Jesus, Mary & Saints' idols, if Muslims claimed that its originally a mosque, I would ask them for proof.

thank you, you're welcome to come and attack islam whenever you want

As I said, I have no intention to attack or offend, I am only asking about issues someone raised to me & which interest me also.

Regards,

Anam.

 

[Anam 27]

There is another recorded destruction of an idolatrous site by Prophet Muhammad, here:

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 5, Book 59, Number 643:
Narrated Qais:
Jarir said "Allah's Apostle said to me, "Won't you relieve me from Dhul-Khalasa?" I replied, "Yes, (I will relieve you)." So I proceeded along with one-hundred and fifty cavalry from Ahmas tribe who were skillful in riding horses. I used not to sit firm over horses, so I informed the Prophet of that, and he stroke my chest with his hand till I saw the marks of his hand over my chest and he said, O Allah! Make him firm and one who guides others and is guided (on the right path).' Since then I have never fallen from a horse. Dhul-l--Khulasa was a house in Yemen belonging to the tribe of Khatham and Bajaila, and in it there were idols which were worshipped, and it was called Al-Ka'ba." Jarir went there, burnt it with fire and dismantled it. When Jarir reached Yemen, there was a man who used to foretell and give good omens by casting arrows of divination. Someone said to him. "The messenger of Allah's Apostle is present here and if he should get hold of you, he would chop off your neck." One day while he was using them (i.e. arrows of divination), Jarir stopped there and said to him, "Break them (i.e. the arrows) and testify that None has the right to be worshipped except Allah, or else I will chop off your neck." So the man broke those arrows and testified that none has the right to be worshipped except Allah. Then Jarir sent a man called Abu Artata from the tribe of Ahmas to the Prophet to convey the good news (of destroying Dhu-l-Khalasa). So when the messenger reached the Prophet, he said, "O Allah's Apostle! By Him Who sent you with the Truth, I did not leave it till it was like a scabby camel." Then the Prophet blessed the horses of Ahmas and their men five times.

This wasn't a site built by Ibrahim too, was it? What is the Islamic justification for this incident? Is this the general principle applicable for all non People of the Book sites & even idolatry of Christians?

 

[aadil77]

I think you're here to cry about religious freedom, but I'll answer you anyway

Hello aadil 77,

I don't see why worshipping idols is "cowardice" its a personal choice to worship whatever or whosoever one pleases.Same with worshipping no god, would you say that my mother & grandmother are cowards because they revere idols of Jesus & Mary? Or I am a coward because I worship no God? I personally think that we're all intelligent human beings who worship whatever we choose to.

Their cowardice was they would abandon their prophets when they fealt their lives were at risk.

Nothing, I was just saying that they had no religious conflicts before, if the Jews too had believed that the kaaba was built by Abrahim, they in all probability should have objected to this site being used for polytheistic purposes, they didn't.

This is where you will fail at bringing jews into this, jews don't believe prophet Ibrahim renovated the kaabah


Please don't be offended without reason aadil, I am not trying to suggest anything at all, all I say is that, Jews & pagans had co existed peaceful previously, neither objected to the others religious rituals, they intermarried, for that matter, there was no prohibition on conversion to Christianity either, as Waraqa ibn Nawfal shows us. If the Jews had seriously believed that the kaaba was built by Abraham, they might have wanted to stop idolatry & polytheism there,they didn't.

Again jews did not believe prophet Ibrahim had anything to do with the city of makkah, this is what the jews think:

There is no local tradition connecting Abraham with Mecca; and we are forced to put this down as a pure invention on the part of the prophet, based on political as well as on theological reasons. According to Shahrastani (Arabic text, p. 430), this Kaaba was the reproduction of the one in heaven. The "Makam Ibrahim," or Station of Abraham, is still pointed out within the sacred enclosure at Mecca; and the footsteps of the patriarch are believed by the worshipers still to be there (Snouck Hurgronje, "Het Mekkaansche Feest," p. 40; Mekka, i. 11).

Read more: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=360&letter=A#ixzz0mly1Q3QU


As I asked you, you have shown no proof that it was built by Ibrahim, its only belief, exactly like pagan belief in idolatry, or atheist belief in no god.

Show me proof that it was built by pagans. What proof will you except?

"And when we made the house a place of resort unto men, and a sanctuary, and (said) take the station of Abraham for a place of prayer; and covenanted with Abraham and Ishmael, saying, 'Do ye two cleanse my house for those who make the circuit, for those who pay devotions there, for those who bow down, and for those, too, who adore. . . .' And when Abraham raised up the foundations of the house with Ishmael, 'Lord, receive it from us. Verily, Thou art hearing and Thou dost know. Lord, and make us, too, resigned unto Thee and of our seed also a nation resigned unto Thee, and show us our rites, and turn toward us; verily, Thou art easy to be turned and merciful. Lord, and send them an apostle from amongst themselves, to read to them Thy signs and teach them the Book and wisdom, and to purify them; verily, Thou art the mighty and the wise'" (compare suras iii. 90-93, xxii. 27-31).



But Prophet Muhammad could have asked them to do this all the same, they might or might not have done this, in which case he could've smashed them. As an analogy, if someone enters into a Church with a Quran & begins reciting from it in the Church, I think its best to ask the individual to leave his book behind & come back, or leave the Church, rather than burning the Quran.

The kaabah was no temple as I've made clear, it had belonged to us from years ago, it had no place for idols. After arab pagans waged war against us and were defeated, we rightly conquered the city. When a city is conquered everything in it becomes spoils of war, we don't have to deal with pagans to remove their idols from our holy land, maybe the prophet did ask them -Allah knows, but it was not their place of worship that they could keep idols inside.

I would not call anyone's idols filthy aadil, same as I wouldn't call a mosque or Quran filthy. As I said, people's religious beliefs or lack thereof need to be respected. I know that people have the right to retaliate, but that doesn't include a right to destroy others' religious sites, or holy texts, for eg if Muslims attack a country today, non Muslims do have a right to retaliate, but that doesn't mean they have a right to burn all copies of the Quran or break down all mosques, then ask people to leave Islam. I think everyone has religious rights, & this is a violation of people's religious rights. Even people who have attacked you have basic rights, including rights to freedom of religion.

Yep they have the right to freedom of religion in their own religious places of worship, in this case it weren't theirs.



I realise this, but the kaaba wasn't a mosque then, it was a place of idolatrous worship, believers believed that its a place for worshipping their idols. I asked you to show me proof that it was built by Ibrahim, you didn't do that, in the absence of proof & the Jews' non objection to idolatry there, pagans could well believe that its their religious site.

I've showed you my proof, now if you want to refute this evidence you will have to bring your own 'proof' that the place was built by arab pagans.

.

When muslims conqured israel we didn't touch the christian churches which were full of idols, so try not to find one example of muslims getting rid of idols that were in their place of worship

Btw prophet Ibrahim was not a jew or christian, He was around wayy before judaism or christianity

But I'll let you know that even jews believed prophet Abraham broke Idols, not in makkah but elsewhere

According to Gen. R. xxxviii. and Tanna debe Eliyahu, ii. 25 (probably a portion of Pirḳe R. El.), Terah was a manufacturer of idols and had them for sale. One day when Terah was absent and Abraham was left to take charge of the shop, an old, yet vigorous, man came in to buy an idol. Abraham handed him the one on top, and he gave him the price asked. "How old art thou?" Abraham asked. "Seventy years," was the answer. "Thou fool," continued Abraham, "how canst thou adore a god so much younger than thou? Thou wert born seventy years ago and this god was made yesterday." The buyer threw away his idol and received his money back. The other sons of Terah complained to their father that Abraham did not know how to sell the idols, and so Abraham was told to attend to the idols as priest. One day a woman brought a meal-offering for the idols, and, as they would not eat, he exclaimed: "A mouth have they but speak not, eyes but see not, ears but hear not, hands but handle not. May their makers be like them, and all who trust in them" (Ps. cxv. 5-8, Heb.), and he broke them to pieces and burned them. Abraham was brought before Nimrod, who said: "Knowest thou not that I am god and ruler of the world? Why hast thou destroyed my images?" Then Abraham said: "If thou art god and ruler of the world, why dost thou not cause the sun to rise in the west and set in the east? If thou art god and ruler of the world, tell me all that I have now at heart, and what I shall do in the future." Nimrod was dumfounded, and Abraham continued: "Thou art the son of Cush, a mortal like him. Thou couldst not save thy father from death, nor wilt thou thyself escape it." According to Gen. R. xxxviii, Nimrod said: "Worship the fire!" "Why not water that quenches the fire?" asked Abraham. "Very well, worship the water!" "Why not the clouds which swallow the water?" "So be it; worship the clouds!" Then Abraham said: "Rather let me adore the wind which blows the clouds about!" "So be it; pray to the wind!" "But," said Abraham, "man can stand up against the wind or shield himself behind the walls of his house." "Then adore me!" said Nimrod. Thereupon Nimrod (Amraphel; see Pesiḳ. R. § 33, 'Er. 53a) ordered Abraham to be cast into a furnace. He had a pile of wood five yards in circumference set on fire, and Abraham was cast into it. But God Himself went down from heaven to rescue him. Wherefore the Lord appeared to him later, saying: "I am the Lord who brought thee out of the fire of the Chaldeans" (Ur Kasdim, Gen. xv. 7). The legend betrays Persian influence (compare the Zoroaster legend in Windischmann, "Zoroastrische Studien," pp. 307-313). Regarding the cave in which Abraham dwelt, see ib. p. 113; compare also B. B. 10a. The dialogue with Nimrod, pointing from fire, water, the cloud, wind, and man to God, has its parallel in Hindu legend (see Benfey, "Pantschatantra," i. 376).

Abraham is thereupon commissioned by God to propagate His truth

Read more: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=360&letter=A#881#ixzz0mm4qPQye

So please stop trying to single out muslims, in christianity god commands you to kill everyone including women and children if they worship idols

 

[Anam 27]

I think you're here to cry about religious freedom, but I'll answer you anyway



When muslims conqured israel we didn't touch the christian churches which were full of idols, so try not to find one example of muslims get rid of idols that were in their place of worhsip

There are plenty of examples historically, but I think the hadith I mentioned satisfies the requirement of one example? It was destruction of a temple comtaining idols in Yemen.


Well Hagia Sophia or this Buddhist University which my new Malay Buddhist acquaintance told me about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Sophia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nalanda

There are quite a few more, but more than historical examples I wanted to know what was sanctioned under Islam. Was destruction of pagan sites ever specifically limited to those two incidents, or was there a general sanction?

 

[aadil77]

There are plenty of examples historically, but I think the hadith I mentioned satisfies the requirement of one example? It was destruction of a temple comtaining idols in Yemen.


Well Hagia Sophia or this Buddhist University which my new Malay Buddhist acquaintance told me about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Sophia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nalanda

There are quite a few more, but more than historical examples I wanted to know what was sanctioned under Islam. Was destruction of pagan sites ever specifically limited to those two incidents, or was there a general sanction?

Read my post again I've edited to give you examples of how jews and christians destoyed idols as well and how they are more untolerent than muslims about the issue

 

[Anam 27]

Read my post again I've edited to give you examples of how jews and christians destoyed idols as well and how they are more untolerent than muslims about the issue

Thank you for providing me with those examples aadil. As I have said, I am not a Christian, but an agnostic. I am not Jewish either.

Yes, I have some emotional attachment to Christianity because of the way I was raised, I suspect I would have the same attachment for Islam had I been raised Muslim, my life's circumstances made me feel more kinship for Christianity than Islam.I suspect I would still have been an agnostic had I been raised Muslim.

However, I do not shy away from discussing uncomfortable issues in Christianity either. I have done with with my fundamentalist Christian as well as non religious friends.

Pointing out idol destruction in Judaism is tu quoque logical fallacy, it doesn't answer the question I raised.

Jewish theology might have mentioned idol destruction, they might have done such stuff in history in Israel, but outside that, they have lived in peace & harmony with idolators in Prophet Muhammad's birthplace pre Islam(hadiths & sira show this), in India & China, where they've not attacked local populations, & never been subjected to anti Semitism by Indian Hindu\Buddhists or Chinese Confucians\Taoists\Buddhists.

Regarding Christians, they might have done such things in history, but Jesus, who is the founder of Christianity never did such stuff, nor do I see Christians smashing the Bamiyan Buddhas today.

Respectfully

Anam.

 

[aadil77]

Jewish theology might have mentioned idol destruction, they might have done such stuff in history in Israel, but outside that, they have lived in peace & harmony with idolators in Prophet Muhammad's birthplace pre Islam(hadiths & sira show this), in India & China, where they've not attacked local populations, & never been subjected to anti Semitism by Indian Hindu\Buddhists or Chinese Confucians\Taoists\Buddhists.

Regarding Christians, they might have done such things in history, but Jesus, who is the founder of Christianity never did such stuff, nor do I see Christians smashing the Bamiyan Buddhas today.

Respectfully

Anam.

Well I've explained everything to you quite clearly. The bhuddas they destroyed was not by the command of the prophet or Allah, so don't associate it with islam.

Again you're snidely suggesting we attacked jews or subjected them to antisemetism, make it clear what you want to say and we'll clear it up.

Just the fact that you're defending christians and jews and refusing to except the answers given to you show that you clearly have something against islam. Its obvious you have an agenda here, you want to promote judaism and christianity as 'peaceful and 'tolerent' religions whilst giving the opposite image of islam, let me show you how tolerent they were.

I don't want to use the examples of christians and jews to justify our selves, but you said that jesus did not do any of those things, let me quote you a few biblical verses

46 "This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Bring a mob against them and give them over to terror and plunder. 47 The mob will stone them and cut them down with their swords; they will kill their sons and daughters and burn down their houses

"Their children shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes! There houses spoiled, and their wives raped...Dash the young men to pieces...have no pity on the fruit of the womb, the children shall not be spared" -- Isa 13:16-18


Ezekiel 9:5-7 "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. god's wrath on those who were to be punished

Hosea 13:16 (King James) Samaria will bear her guilt because she has rebelled against her God.
They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open


You know why those people were killed, simply because they worshipped idols. Thats how intolerent christianity was of idol worship, Jesus commanded the people to kill them. In islam we don't believe the prophet Jesus or Allah would have commanded such behaviour.

Jews have killed and persecuted prophets for ages, don't tell me they lived 'peaceful' with everyone. According to christianity they killed prophet Jesus didn't they? Look at the terrorist state of israel, even though they don't represent true jews, jews fully support the state.

You are sounding more and more like a hypocrite by defending others whilst giving a negative impression of islam

 

[Chuck]

Well, if the kaaba was built by Ibrahim, whats' the proof that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) showed the pagans? Concrete proof, not vague claims please. I know that some Muslims claim there're footprints there, were those footprints matched with Ibrahim's?

Also, if the kaaba was built by Ibrahim, why didn't the Jews object to the idols there? Ibrahim story is a story of the Jews, but Jews lived in religious peace with the pagans, they even intermarried like Kaab ibn al Ashraf's Jewish mother & pagan father, & the children were raised Jewish as halacha states. Kaab became the leader of a Jewish tribe, pardon me if I'm wrong, but I don't see Jews killing pagans or vice versa over the kaaba.

Another thing, even if its true that the kaaba was built by Ibrahim, why didn't Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) ask the idolators to remove their idols elsewhere? They could have removed them.

Makkan pagans didn't need any proof, it was not the issue of proof, they knew who built Kaaba. Mecca was started by Abraham (pbuh) through his son (pbuh).

Why would Jews object? They were from another lineage of Abraham (pbuh) and there were no Jews in Mecca. Many of them didn't object in their own lands, so why would they do it for a temple built by another lineage of Abraham. In any case, they may or may not, doesn't make a difference.

And why would Meccan pagan remove the idol, first they put themselves there, they brought a new religion, they liked them there, and it was economically beneficial for them. Second, they were against Islam, they were persecuting muslims. Are you serious?

 

[Ramadhan]

Jewish theology might have mentioned idol destruction, they might have done such stuff in history in Israel, but outside that, they have lived in peace & harmony with idolators in Prophet Muhammad's birthplace pre Islam(hadiths & sira show this), in India & China, where they've not attacked local populations, & never been subjected to anti Semitism by Indian Hindu\Buddhists or Chinese Confucians\Taoists\Buddhists.

Are you serious?
Of course they would never attack local populations in India and China because their number is like 0.001% of the general population. But look closely at what they CURRENTLY are doing in the Palestine.

Regarding Christians, they might have done such things in history, but Jesus, who is the founder of Christianity never did such stuff, nor do I see Christians smashing the Bamiyan Buddhas today.

but the christians fully support the state of Israel and the destruction of the Palestinians.
I don't have the number, but I would be very curious to know the number of mosques that have been destroyed by the western armies in Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

[Chuck]

Are you serious?
Of course they would never attack local populations in India and China because their number is like 0.001% of the general population. But look closely at what they CURRENTLY are doing in the Palestine.



but the christians fully support the state of Israel and the destruction of the Palestinians.
I don't have the number, but I would be very curious to know the number of mosques that have been destroyed by the western armies in Iraq and Afghanistan.

You are mixing with something else. In the past when God was sending them prophets (pbut) they were told to go to war and cleanse the land, be the representative of One True God. Some with the stronger faith did and others with weaker faith did not. There are always good and bad, strong of faith and weak of faith.

Currently their are Jews who are against what Israel is doing to Palestinians and others support the aggression which are unfortunately majority. In anycase, this is separate issue compared to the idols/paganism issue.

 

[Supreme]

Is there a list that details every single pagan idol that was worshipped in the Kaaba? And isn't the Kaaba too small for 360 idols to fit inside?

 

[aadil77]

Is there a list that details every single pagan idol that was worshipped in the Kaaba? And isn't the Kaaba too small for 360 idols to fit inside?

no, why would there be? its got nothing to do with islam

I think the kaabah is big enough to fit way more

 

[CosmicPathos]

@ anam: Well first thing first. I think your Muslim father made a huge mistake by marrying a pagan idol-worshipping mom of yours. You gotta respect my view too now.

Regarding Taliban destroying the Buddha sites in Afghanistan, Afghanistan is a Muslim country where these Buddhists are almost non-existent. As such, the locals have every right to do whatever they want to with their country, landmark monuments and resources. From the perspective, whatever Taliban, the controlling authority,did was right. Even if these statues were historical monuments, too bad they were found in a country where the people do not attach historical significance to such filthy ugly idols.

Your professor might very well be pissed off but do I care? Or do we care? No.

And you do not need to hammer away the point that you are agnostic. We know that you dont believe in Allah. And by Allah, nothing happens without Allah's will and it was Allah's will to misguide you. and may Allah protect us from the outcome you've had.

Best of luck.

 

[CosmicPathos]

@ anam: What proof do you have that before your grand ma put that stupid "baby Jesus" idol in her house, it was not a mosque?

Regarding Muhammad pbuh destroying the idols in Kaaba, he destroyed them when he had become a leader of Makkah. He destroyed idols when almost no-one in Makkah wanted to worship these idols. He destroyed these idols when almost everyone had converted to Islam and wanted to get rid of this filth as quickly as they could. That is why all people gathered around kaaba and watched Muhammad pbuh destroying those filthy idols without resisting! Makkans were known to fight for their ancestral legacy so if they really wanted these idols, why wont they fight with Muhammad pbuh at this point? The fact that these very ex-pagans wanted to get rid of these kaabas shows that your argument is invalid. You can feel sadness for the pagans whose idols were destroyed but the reality is that those very pagans did not want anything to do with these idols anymore! So it makes your argument of little, if any, worth.

 

[Supreme]

no, why would there be? its got nothing to do with islam

True, although it would substantiate and add a further layer of historical validity to the story of 360 idols being destroyed.

I think the kaabah is big enough to fit way more

I'm not talking about the idols themselves; how are you possibly going to fit numerous pagans, each with their own idol (and there are 360 of them), worshipping simultaneously? It would be cramped at best, impossible at worst.

 

[aadil77]

True, although it would substantiate and add a further layer of historical validity to the story of 360 idols being destroyed.



I'm not talking about the idols themselves; how are you possibly going to fit numerous pagans, each with their own idol (and there are 360 of them), worshipping simultaneously? It would be cramped at best, impossible at worst.

no they wouldcome with their idols and place them in the kaabah as part of a collection, I doubt they would go inside to worship thim

also I don't see why muslims would want to lie about destroying idols, you'd expect to people to accept anything that can show islam in a negative light

at the time there were three most famous idols uzza, laat and manat, you can read about them here if you're interested http://www.thaliatook.com/AMGG/al-uzza.html