Summa vs. Thumma

[جوري]

Does anyone know the difference?
There was a story of a lady during the times of the prophet (PBUH) who couldn't make the 'tha' sound very well as a result used to confuse between thabit aqdaam almoslmeen vs sabit aqdaam.. again do you know the difference and why this lady (whose name I forget) was given a different du3a to make. It is very important that we distinguish the difference as it isn't mere pronunciation difference.. they give completely different meaning, opposing in fact..
I'll give two rep points to the one who brings correct plus the name of that lady..

 

[Muhaba]

I read that the Prophet (SAW) knew many dialects of arabic and would teach each tribe the Quran in their own dialect. There was a tribe that didn't pronounce the last س sound so they were taught the Quran in the way they pronounced the words. When reciting Surah al-Nas for example, they would say "Qul A'oozo bi rabbinaa" instead of "nas."

This is just like the difference of englsih dialects. british don't pronounce r in some words and americans don't pronounce t in some words. it doesn't affect the meaning of teh words and noone tells either that either is wrong.

Likewise, Islam makes it easy on those of different dialects / accents. non-arabs can't pronounce some letters right no matter what they do. even americans can't pronounce خ . they say k . it's true that one should try to learn the correct pronunciation, but if one can't then that doesn't mean that they should stop reciting the Quran or praying or reading duas. There is a hadith that the one who is learning the Quran (and makes mistakes) gets two rewards.

so islam doesn't at all discourage people from learning or praying or reciting. if a person can in no way change their accent or pronunciation, then they should read it the way they do and Allah is most forgiving.

 

[Imaduddin]

The correct word out of the two is Thumma. One reason I can think of why it is written as Summa is because of the Turkish people. They do not have many of the Arabic letters and unfortunately instead of trying to learn them, they just changed them with something else. For example They can say the letter "TH" so they say "S" and the Ayn to O as in Uthman bin Affan to Osman bin Affan. They also don't have the first letter of the word 'Dhalimoon' so they say 'Zalimoon'.

There are some differences in qirat and dialects, however it is only a word or two within an Ayah to give it a deeper meaning, as a result a letter may change and thus the Ayah keeps it's original meaning accept that it gets a deeper meaning, for example, there may be the word 'eternal hell' and the word 'eternal in this case may be changed to 'severe' and makes the sentence into 'severe hell' or something like that.

I hope that is helpful insha Allah.

 

[جوري]

It is one thing when one says things out of simply not knowing the meaning and another when they know & persist also in this case people are writing so no pronunciation is involved so it makes it all the more paramount to get it correct.
Regarding your other comment on reciting with different dialects:

what you've written above isn't merely a dialect though it is a paraphrase of the verses all together, which isn't how anyone recites the Quran whether an Arab or otherwise

and Allah swt knows best..
I am still waiting for an answer to the Q posed in shaa Allah

 

[جوري]

The correct word out of the two is Thumma.

very true.. do you know the difference in meaning though with thumma vs. summa?
I just found the phenomenon rampant on the forum and wanted to discuss it openly.. not to put anyone on the spot but so we can all learn something in sha Allah..
also like thabit and tabit or sabit both have really bad meaning...

 

[Abz2000]

her name was umm ayman (barakah), she was the carer of abd al muttalib, abdullah, and the messenger of Allah pbuh, and mother of the 18 year old general (usama bin zayd) who the prophet pbuh sent out to the roman front
to step over the land where his father had fallen.

 

[جوري]

well done ma shaa Allah...
it is wonderful to learn something new or refresh what one once learned and forgotten since..

 

[Insaanah]

her name was umm ayman (barakah), she was the carer of abd al muttalib, abdullah, and the messenger of Allah pbuh, and mother of the 18 year old general (usama bin zayd) who the prophet pbuh sent out to the roman front
to step over the land where his father had fallen.

Jazaakallah khayr for sharing that video. It doesn't make any mention though of the incident about not being able to pronounce tha properly. Is there a hadeeth or narration about it?

 

[جوري]

I am looking for it now myself but it is her.
Also no one wants to take a stab at the difference? all that is required is the dictionary

 

[Abz2000]

Jazaakallah khayr for sharing that video. It doesn't make any mention though of the incident about not being able to pronounce tha properly. Is there a hadeeth or narration about it?

here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8Nm2lH1_tA&feature=player_detailpage#t=1119s

or play this vid, and go directly to 19mins 27 seconds:

sabbath meant sabbath as in saturday according to bro anwar, though he doesn't always have to be correct in his interpretation as he is human like us, though........an amazing human being

 

[جوري]

she was with the prophet in ghazwit uhud supplicating but she was originally Ethiopian so her pronunciation was off..
Still looking in shaa Allah..

 

[جوري]

here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8Nm2lH1_tA&feature=player_detailpage#t=1119s

or play this vid, and go directly to 19mins 27 seconds:

sabbath meant sabbath as in saturday according to bro anwar, though he doesn't always have to be correct in his interpretation as he is human like us, though........an amazing human being

you beat me to this Jazaka Allah khyran.. I'll post the meanings of the words if no one comes forward with a try...

 

[Insaanah]

Also no one wants to take a stab at the difference? all that is required is the dictionary

If its with a saad, it'd be to be deaf? Like summun bukmun umyun? That's just a guess, though it's with a fat'hah in the dictionary. If it's with a seen, poison?

 

[جوري]

If its with a saad, it'd be to be deaf? Like summun bukmun umyun? That's just a guess, though it's with a fat'hah in the dictionary. If it's with a seen, poison?

with a س respected sis..
ok if no one will take a stab at it.. summa means poison ..
and tabit over thabit means to cut off their feet as opposed to making them steadfast..

Jazakoum Allah khyran for the participation and br. ABZ for the video of umm Ayman

 

[Insaanah]

ok if no one will take a stab at it.. summa means poison ..

That was my last sentence

JazaakiAllah khayr dear sister for educating us on this important difference, and Br Abz for the video.

 

[جوري]

That was my last sentence

JazaakiAllah khayr dear sister for educating us on this important difference, and Br Abz for the video.

rofl I am blindddddddddddd.. jazaki Allah khyran..
so in shaa Allah we don't poison our ameen or cut off the feet those whom we pray that Allah swt would make steadfast...

Do you remember also the people who used to say As'saam 3lykoum instead of as'salaam 3lykoum..
I know I sound like a freaking stick in the mud but it is paramount if we use Arabic to do it correctly as one syllable can render the whole sentence (no matter how well wishing we're) completely moot...

 

[جوري]

just wanted to add yes sabit means sabbath (Saturday) rendering the word meaningless but also tabit means cut off such as in suret al masad in reference to abu Lahab 'tabat yada' which is horrible so quite possible she fluctuated between the two since I learned the story when in KSA I learned both I believe Anwar only stuck with one.. and I had definitely forgotten her name so high Kudos for finding this because I couldn't find it on google.. Google only has anti-Islamic rhetoric to trap the meek in our midst.. was taking me quite the long time to find her and you have granted me a great service...

Barakoum Allah feekoum.. I enjoyed this and thank you for participating may Allah swt reward you all..

 

[Insaanah]

Wa iyyaaki, ameen.

so in shaa Allah we don't poison our ameen or cut off the feet those whom we pray that Allah swt would make steadfast...

Inshaa'Allah, we'll do our best to avoid that.

I enjoyed this and thank you for participating

So did I, found that very beneficial, and so I look forward to more...

 

[Muhaba]

It is one thing when one says things out of simply not knowing the meaning and another when they know & persist also in this case people are writing so no pronunciation is involved so it makes it all the more paramount to get it correct.
Regarding your other comment on reciting with different dialects:

what you've written above isn't merely a dialect though it is a paraphrase of the verses all together, which isn't how anyone recites the Quran whether an Arab or otherwise

and Allah swt knows best..
I am still waiting for an answer to the Q posed in shaa Allah

i'm unsure if the people who didn't pronounce the last س were from Yemen or where. you might want to research this. i wish i remembered the tribe or whereever they came from. in anycase, in syria i actually saw some people who didn't pronounce the letter n in ramadan. they said ramadaa instead.

And Allah knows best.

yes, so if one can, then they should try to improve the pronunciation. but there are people who just can't. it's impossible for them. i'm unsure if they'll need speech therapy or what, lol. such people shouldn't be discouraged.

there are also words that sound alike but have different meanings, for example tail and tale. and from the sentence you know what the meaning is. so i don't think such a big deal should be made out of it.

 

[جوري]

yes, so if one can, then they should try to improve the pronunciation. but there are people who just can't. it's impossible for them. i'm unsure if they'll need speech therapy or what, lol. such people shouldn't be discouraged.

No one should be discouraged I agree..
just breaks my heart to receive great du3a and have it poisoned at the end
Regarding the Quran however people are united on the queryshi dialect and indeed some people pronounce things differently but with the recitations they should indeed make an effort. People of Egypt never say the g sound as it is in gem they always pronounce the g the way it is in good.. so can you imagine saying aooth billah min ashytaan arageem instead or arajeem? also they never pronounce the qaaf they make a hamza or alif sound instead so you can imagine what this does with some of the names and attributes of Allah swt.. it is no longer a matter of unable to because they have a speech pathology problem rather it is the dialect of the region and can easily be overcome when reciting.. As we have seen some words one syllable difference can render an entirely different meaning all together.