What do Jews/Non-Muslims think about the Gharqad tree?

[Al-Indunisiy]

So, I was browsing the internet for gharqad. I found out that some muslims (to be specific malaysian muslims) actually beleive that the Jews are planting the tree in knowing of the hadith from Sahih Muslim.

And here I am wondering what do Jews think about it.

Do any Jews know/aware of the significance of the gharqad tree(Boxthorn)?

 

[Victor]

Al-Indunisiy,

Nothing could be more ridiculous. The Gharqad tree, which is apparently called Boxthorn in English, is actually about 90 related species of trees. I can tell you, as an observant Jew, that I've never heard of anything like this in Torah, Mishna, Gemara, Tehillim, etc.

There are five species of fruit (and their trees, obviously) which are significant to Jews, particularly in Israel - grapes, figs, pomegranates, olives, and dates. There are certain agricultural and other laws related to them, and to fruit trees in general.

As a side note, it is very interesting that the Islamic hadith mentions the Gharqad tree, however, because there IS one mention of this tree in Jewish literature. The Jewish King Solomon, son of King David, wrote a Book of Proverbs (in Hebrew, Mishlei). The Gharqad tree is mentioned there one time, in Chapter 22, Verse 5:

This isn't a great translation, but you get the basic picture:

5. Troops [and] snares are in the way of the perverse; he who preserves his soul will distance himself from them.

And now the Rashi commentary (Rashi was a great Jewish commentator who lived in France during the Middle Ages), which comes out a bit fractious in this translation, I think.

Troops [and] snares: Heb. צנים, as in (Num. 33: 55) “troops (לצנינים) in your sides” ; (Ezek. 23:24) “And they will come upon you, a band (הצן),” an expression of bands and brigands.

Troops and snares: are hidden on the ways of the one who perverts his ways; i.e., torments are prepared for him. He who preserves his soul will distance himself from them: He who is upright in his deeds will be saved from them.

From the English, it's not clear what all this has to do with the Boxthorn tree. The connection is in the Hebrew, meaning that thorns and snares (which this tree is apparently known for) torment the wicked. Basically, people who make bad (spiritually wicked) decisions will face obstacles and negative consequences, symbolized by the thorns and snares of this tree, the Boxthorn or Gharqad in Arabic.

So, Islam says that this particular tree, the Gharqad, which is used synonymously in Mishlei by Solomon to refer to thorns and snares that torment wicked people, is the tree of the Jews.

It is this tree, Islam says, which will protect the Jews against the Muslims on the Day of Judgment. A tree whose essence is to stumble and harass the wicked will protect the Jews from the Muslims. An interesting choice for "the tree of the Jews".

That's just something I find interesting, personally.

But to answer your question, until I read that hadith, I never heard of this tree in the Jewish faith. I've seen some places online where they show a picture of Israel's Prime Minister Benyamin Netanyahu planting a tree. For some reason, every time they use the same picture. But the tree he was planting is an olive tree, during Tisha B'Av, which is a Jewish holiday of trees and fruits. Anyone who has worked with small olive trees will know that it was an olive tree because of the shape of the leaves.

There is something called the Jewish National Fund. They have been working for almost 100 years to plant trees in Israel. Especially in the north of Israel, they did a lot of work to drain the swamps. They've planted maybe 100 million trees, but almost all those trees are evergreens, like the cedar trees in Lebanon. They are good for that climate, which can be both dry and cold. Unfortunately, a lot of trees were destroyed in the last war with Hezbollah. The rockets landed everywhere, and they started big fires that took a long time to stop. I know they started a campaign to replant those trees, but it will take a long time.

So anyway, if we Jews wanted to plant Gharqad trees, we would have done it instead of planting 100 million cedar trees.

 

[Al-Indunisiy]

Hmmm, It is also interesting that some people here in Indonesia and Malaysia REALLY believe that Jews plan to plant Boxthorn trees for that purpose. I wonder what would their reaction be if I were to tell them otherwise........

 

[جوري]

Who said that they need to plant the tree to take refuge in it? is every tree on the face of the earth planted by someone? furthermore who says that said tree needs to be mentioned in Jewish literature for it to have some significance for Muslims?
On said day 'not the day of judgment by the way' as per above rather what is better known as Armageddon, there will be a schism between right and wrong.. Jesus (p) will have descended and at the same time the 'Anti-christ'.. there will be righteous Jews who will recognize the tribulation of the day but the majority unfortunately and from their own description of the 'moschiach' will be followers of this masikh dajjal 'anti-christ' .. and that will be the time for said battle and said trees, said rocks, etc. It isn't something to judge by today's standards!

 

[Al-Indunisiy]

Who said that they need to plant the tree to take refuge in it?

Some people do.

 

[جوري]

Some people do.

Due to severe oppressions in the Islamic world it is understandable that many would want to hasten the signs.. but we are actually told that Allah swt doesn't change a people until they change themselves.. When said day comes, it will not matter who planted or didn't plant what..
Could you conceive logically that Jews would be lost for 40 years in a small stretch of land while claiming to be God's chosen? When comes God's will, there is no hastening it, there is no changing it, there is no re-planting around it..

Try reading the sirat, look at the time when the prophet Mohammed (p) promised Muslims that they'd make pilgrimage, and yet was prohibited from entering Makkah by the pagans.. Even the sahaba asked him, didn't you promise that we'd reclaim Makkah from the pagans, and he said, 'did I say it was this year'? It is so human to want impose opinion on divine will, and that isn't the way it works out at all, Let's have some reverence for Allah swt!

 

[Gabriel Ibn Yus]

Wow. This is a good question man.

In fact you would be interested to know that this Hadith has a DIRECT EQUIVALENCE IN THE BIBLE !!

Bare with me here because this is GROUNDBREAKING!

I direct you to the following quotations. First, this is the Hadith we are talking about.

Sahih Muslim: Book 041, Number 6985. More or less -The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.

Now below you can read what the Bible says in the book of Judges. These verses are called "Jotham's fable".

"And when they told it to Jotham, he went and stood in the top of mount Gerizim, and lifted up his voice, and cried, and said unto them, Hearken unto me, ye men of Shechem, that God may hearken unto you.

The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them;

and they said unto the olive tree, Reign thou over us.
But the olive tree said unto them, Should I leave my fatness, wherewith by me they honour God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?

And the trees said to the fig tree, Come thou, and reign over us.
But the fig tree said unto them, Should I forsake my sweetness, and my good fruit, and go to be promoted over the trees?

Then said the trees unto the vine, Come thou, and reign over us.
And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?

Then said all the trees unto the bramble, Come thou, and reign over us.
And the bramble said unto the trees, If in truth ye anoint me king over you, then come and put your trust in my shadow: and if not, let fire come out of the bramble, and devour the cedars of Lebanon.

Now therefore, if ye have done truly and sincerely, in that ye have made Abimelech king, and if ye have dealt well with Jerubbaal and his house, and have done unto him according to the deserving of his hands;
(For my father fought for you, and adventured his life far, and delivered you out of the hand of Midian:
And ye are risen up against my father's house this day, and have slain his sons, threescore and ten persons, upon one stone, and have made Abimelech, the son of his maidservant, king over the men of Shechem, because he is your brother
If ye then have dealt truly and sincerely with Jerubbaal and with his house this day, then rejoice ye in Abimelech, and let him also rejoice in you:
But if not, let fire come out from Abimelech, and devour the men of Shechem, and the house of Millo; and let fire come out from the men of Shechem, and from the house of Millo, and devour Abimelech.
And Jotham ran away, and fled, and went to Beer, and dwelt there, for fear of Abimelech his brother. " (Book of Judges 9, 7-20)

Bramble is another word for Boxthorn (Gharqad) tree.

It is however interesting to make the following remark.

Remark: Also in the Bible the people who hide behind the Boxthorn tree are considered wicked tyrants. In fact the story is half prophecy in which the people who pick for themselves somewhat of an equivalent
of the Dajjal as a Messiah and a king bring a Holocaust upon themselves. By the way, later on this king is being killed by a woman.

"And a certain woman cast a piece of a millstone upon Abimelech's head, and all to brake his skull.
Then he called hastily unto the young man his armourbearer, and said unto him, Draw thy sword, and slay me, that men say not of me, A woman slew him. And his young man thrust him through, and he died.
And when the men of Israel saw that Abimelech was dead, they departed every man unto his place.
Thus God rendered the wickedness of Abimelech, which he did unto his father, in slaying his seventy brethren:
And all the evil of the men of Shechem did God render upon their heads: and upon them came the curse of Jotham the son of Jerubbaal." (Book of Judges 9, 53-57)

Way to go with the question!! Fantastic and very interesting indeed!

 

[Gabriel Ibn Yus]

It is further interesting to mention that there are additional relations to Surat Al-Mujadila

"[58:13]Have you not considered those who make allies of a people with whom Allah has become angry? They are neither of you nor of them, and they swear to untruth while they know [they are lying].

[58:14]Allah has prepared for them a severe punishment. Indeed, it was evil that they were doing.

[58:15] They took their [false] oaths as a cover, so they averted [people] from the way of Allah , and for them is a humiliating punishment.

[58:16] Never will their wealth or their children avail them against Allah at all. Those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally.

[58:17] On the Day Allah will resurrect them all, and they will swear to Him as they swear to you and think that they are [standing] on something. Unquestionably, it is they who are the liars.

[58:19] Satan has overcome them and made them forget the remembrance of Allah . Those are the party of Satan. Unquestionably, the party of Satan - they will be the losers.

[58:20] Indeed, the ones who oppose Allah and His Messenger - those will be among the most humbled.

[58:21] Allah has written, "I will surely overcome, I and My messengers." Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might.

[58:22] You will not find a people who believe in Allah and the Last Day having affection for those who oppose Allah and His Messenger, even if they were their fathers or their sons or their brothers or their kindred. Those - He has decreed within their hearts faith and supported them with spirit from Him. And We will admit them to gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they abide eternally. Allah is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him - those are the party of Allah . Unquestionably, the party of Allah - they are the successful. " (Holy Quran, Surat Al-Mujadila)

Compare to:

"9:1 And Abimelech the son of Jerubbaal went to Shechem unto his mother's brethren, and communed with them, and with all the family of the house of his mother's father, saying,

9:2 Speak, I pray you, in the ears of all the men of Shechem, Whether is better for you, either that all the sons of Jerubbaal, which are threescore and ten persons, reign over you, or that one reign over you? remember also that I am your bone and your flesh.

9:3 And his mother's brethren spake of him in the ears of all the men of Shechem all these words: and their hearts inclined to follow Abimelech; for they said, He is our brother.

9:4 And they gave him threescore and ten pieces of silver out of the house of Baalberith, wherewith Abimelech hired vain and light persons, which followed him. " (Book of Judges, chapter 9)

Note the similarity of people following their evil corrupted kin - Abimelch.

Also

"[58:16] Never will their wealth or their children avail them against Allah at all. Those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally."

And

"9:20 But if not, let fire come out from Abimelech, and devour the men of Shechem, and the house of Millo; and let fire come out from the men of Shechem, and from the house of Millo, and devour Abimelech." (Book of Judges)

 

[aadil77]

^Those are interesting quotes from the bible, so what does that story mean exactly?

 

[Gabriel Ibn Yus]

^Those are interesting quotes from the bible, so what does that story mean exactly?

I can not say too much about "meaning" because hardly know about things like that but I can try to summarize what is the contents of the story itself as it appears in the Bible.

It is a struggle between a family in Israel on the kingdom. In one side you have the evil old uncle Abimelech which takes all the people of Israel and seduces them to follow him. At this time the people are governed by a council and he seduces them to take for themselves a sole leader which would be him. He tells them that he should be their king because he is their blood and brother (also the 70 council members are).

He then collects money in hiding and hires people to come with him to kill the 70 council members of his own kin. Which they do. After he does that he meets an opposition from a man named Jotham. Jotahm warns the people and curses those who choose to follow Abimelech but is not strong enough to physically oppose him by himself. He would seem to qualify as an honest men.

The people do not heed to his warnings and go Abimelech inspite of the curse. Abimelech eventually leads them to war which they loose in fire. Eventually in this war Abimelech finds his death (by the hand of a woman). After that the curse is lifted.

In the story Abimelech is likened in the story to the Gharqad tree by Jotahm.

Also, it is also interesting that Abimelech does not want it to be known that he was killed by a woman and asks his squire to kill him before his death. The squire does that towards the end of the chapter.

 

[aadil77]

but what have those trees got to do with it, who's jotahm?

 

[Gabriel Ibn Yus]

Oops. I edited too slowly. I revised and the revision includes some indication what to the questions.

Jotahm warns the people and curses those who choose to follow Abimelech but is not strong enough to physically oppose him by himself. He would seem to qualify as an honest men.

In the story Abimelech is likened in the story to the Gharqad tree by Jotahm.

 

[Victor]

Be careful diving into someone's tradition, while using a questionable (Christian) translation, without understanding the context or commentary. The Jewish faith is not written for simple people. Jotham's fables is an anti-monarchical allegory. Prior to selecting a King, the Jewish people were ruled by a court of 70 wise elders, who interpreted laws and issued legal rulings. Why a monarchy became necessary, if it was necessary, is another story, but the trees in Jotham's fable refer to the various individuals who took part in the development of the kingship, or opposition to it. For example, the olive tree referrs to Othniel the son of Kenaz from the tribe of Judah, which is called an olive tree, as it says, “Like a fresh olive tree, beautiful in form, etc.” (this refers to the cities of Judah mentioned in another text). The vine refers to to Gideon who descended from Joseph of whom it is said, “A fruitful son is Joseph; blessed as a vine standing by the water”. The fig tree refers to Deborah, and so on.

At the most basic, literal level, the fable is about the good trees - olive, fig and vine - representing righteous individuals, being offered the kingship. They refused, because they did not wish to trade their unique spiritual capacities for honoring both God in return for mere power. However, a useless, bad tree, whose only contribution is thorns (it's not the Boxthorn, it's a different word in Hebrew) accepted the throne, and used it wickedly, oppressing people for three years. Ultimately, Abimelech was overthrown. At the basic level, the fable is about the importance of entrusting righteous individuals with power, to prevent the wicked from taking it and abusing their position.

That's the simple explanation that is good for a child of 5 years old, but there are layers and layers of meaning here. In the Hebrew, even one letter, or one mark above or below a letter, or even the how shape of the letters is made has a meaning and significance that requires decades of learning. There are entire systems for deciphering layers of meaning within the text. We have three thousand years of tradition, interpretation and commentary. Opening up a Jewish text and reading it like it's some story is for ignoramuses. This text has nothing to do with the Gharqad tree.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Since you asked, I have never heard of this tree.

 

[glo]

Be careful diving into someone's tradition, while using a questionable (Christian) translation, without understanding the context or commentary. The Jewish faith is not written for simple people. Jotham's fables is an anti-monarchical allegory. Prior to selecting a King, the Jewish people were ruled by a court of 70 wise elders, who interpreted laws and issued legal rulings. Why a monarchy became necessary, if it was necessary, is another story, but the trees in Jotham's fable refer to the various individuals who took part in the development of the kingship, or opposition to it. For example, the olive tree referrs to Othniel the son of Kenaz from the tribe of Judah, which is called an olive tree, as it says, “Like a fresh olive tree, beautiful in form, etc.” (this refers to the cities of Judah mentioned in another text). The vine refers to to Gideon who descended from Joseph of whom it is said, “A fruitful son is Joseph; blessed as a vine standing by the water”. The fig tree refers to Deborah, and so on.

At the most basic, literal level, the fable is about the good trees - olive, fig and vine - representing righteous individuals, being offered the kingship. They refused, because they did not wish to trade their unique spiritual capacities for honoring both God in return for mere power. However, a useless, bad tree, whose only contribution is thorns (it's not the Boxthorn, it's a different word in Hebrew) accepted the throne, and used it wickedly, oppressing people for three years. Ultimately, Abimelech was overthrown. At the basic level, the fable is about the importance of entrusting righteous individuals with power, to prevent the wicked from taking it and abusing their position.

That's the simple explanation that is good for a child of 5 years old, but there are layers and layers of meaning here. In the Hebrew, even one letter, or one mark above or below a letter, or even the how shape of the letters is made has a meaning and significance that requires decades of learning. There are entire systems for deciphering layers of meaning within the text. We have three thousand years of tradition, interpretation and commentary. Opening up a Jewish text and reading it like it's some story is for ignoramuses. This text has nothing to do with the Gharqad tree.

Victor, you explanation of the symbolism behind the different trees is very interesting.

Thanks for sharing, and welcome to the forum. :welcome:

 

[Predator]

First, this is the Hadith we are talking about.

Sahih Muslim: Book 041, Number 6985. More or less -The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews

The Jews have also been promised 7 times more punishment than anyone else according to their own book.

{26:18} And if ye will not yet for all this
hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more
for your sins
{26:21} And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not
hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues
upon you according to your sins.
{26:23}
And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but
will walk contrary unto me; {26:24} Then will I also walk
contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for
your sins.
{26:28}
And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary
unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in
fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your
sins.


And a SECOND BONDAGE IN EGYPT:

They have already got out once once and Lord is going to bring them back to be sold as slaves

". . . now will he (the Lord) remember their (the Jews') iniquity,
and visit their (the Jews') sins: they shall RETURN to Egypt
(for a second bondage)." HOSEA 8:13
"
And the Lord shall bring you (the Jews) into Egypt again with
ships, by the way whereof I spake unto you (Jews), Thou shalt
see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your
enemies for bondman and bondwomen, and NO MAN shall
buy you." DEUTERONOMY 28:68


So basically Jews wll become such a bloody rubbish that no man will have them .Even the slaves wouldnt want them


And then the JEWs will be SUBSTITUTED:
"
Therefore said I (Jesus) unto you (Jews), The kingdom of God
shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth
the fruits thereof." MATTHEW 21:43

What other nation beside the modern Muslims of today bow down to GOD Almighty in the most proper way?
What other nation beside the modern Muslims Glorify GOD Almighty in their 5-daily Prayers, and fast the Month of Ramadan for Him?

This substitution will happen when Israel falls Insha Allah . The below CIA report predicts that Israel will fall in 20 years

http://arabnews.com/middleeast/article67325.ece

 

[Gabriel Ibn Yus]

Be careful diving into someone's tradition, while using a questionable (Christian) translation, without understanding the context or commentary. The Jewish faith is not written for simple people. Jotham's fables is an anti-monarchical allegory. Prior to selecting a King, the Jewish people were ruled by a court of 70 wise elders, who interpreted laws and issued legal rulings. Why a monarchy became necessary, if it was necessary, is another story, but the trees in Jotham's fable refer to the various individuals who took part in the development of the kingship, or opposition to it. For example, the olive tree referrs to Othniel the son of Kenaz from the tribe of Judah, which is called an olive tree, as it says, “Like a fresh olive tree, beautiful in form, etc.” (this refers to the cities of Judah mentioned in another text). The vine refers to to Gideon who descended from Joseph of whom it is said, “A fruitful son is Joseph; blessed as a vine standing by the water”. The fig tree refers to Deborah, and so on.

At the most basic, literal level, the fable is about the good trees - olive, fig and vine - representing righteous individuals, being offered the kingship. They refused, because they did not wish to trade their unique spiritual capacities for honoring both God in return for mere power. However, a useless, bad tree, whose only contribution is thorns (it's not the Boxthorn, it's a different word in Hebrew) accepted the throne, and used it wickedly, oppressing people for three years. Ultimately, Abimelech was overthrown. At the basic level, the fable is about the importance of entrusting righteous individuals with power, to prevent the wicked from taking it and abusing their position.

That's the simple explanation that is good for a child of 5 years old, but there are layers and layers of meaning here. In the Hebrew, even one letter, or one mark above or below a letter, or even the how shape of the letters is made has a meaning and significance that requires decades of learning. There are entire systems for deciphering layers of meaning within the text. We have three thousand years of tradition, interpretation and commentary.

So? I am not sure that I understand what you mean..so now this tradition has simply received one more interpretation
to this story.

Opening up a Jewish text and reading it like it's some story is for ignoramuses. This text has nothing to do with the Gharqad tree.

This is not true as the Hebrew word for brambale tree is Atad אטד which is called in Arabic Gharqad tree.

 

[Amat Allah]

What had been mentioned in that hadeeth will surely happen %100 by Allah`s willing whether they planted planting will plant it or not ,cause that is the hadeeth of a Messenger and a Prophet of Allah peace and blessings of Allah be upon him and those who had been sent from Allah Al Mighty do not talk idly but the truth which truly will happen and happen in spite of all the creatures of Allah the One...

In Sahih Muslim: Book 041, Number 6985:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews".

May Allah guide us all...Ameeeeen

 

[north_malaysian]

Hmmm, It is also interesting that some people here in Indonesia and Malaysia REALLY believe that Jews plan to plant Boxthorn trees for that purpose. I wonder what would their reaction be if I were to tell them otherwise........

I am a Malaysian and I never heard of the Jewish plan to plant gharqad trees... :hmm: