Adam and the 60 cubit confusion

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Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Allah created Adam, making him 60 cubits tall. When He created him, He said to him, "Go and greet that group of angels, and listen to their reply, for it will be your greeting (salutation) and the greeting (salutations of your offspring." So, Adam said (to the angels), As-Salamu Alaikum (i.e. Peace be upon you). The angels said, "As-salamu Alaika wa Rahmatu-l-lahi" (i.e. Peace and Allah's Mercy be upon you). Thus the angels added to Adam's salutation the expression, 'Wa Rahmatu-l-lahi,' Any person who will enter Paradise will resemble Adam (in appearance and figure). People have been decreasing in stature since Adam's creation.

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The first group of people who will enter Paradise, will be glittering like the full moon and those who will follow them, will glitter like the most brilliant star in the sky. They will not urinate, relieve nature, spit, or have any nasal secretions. Their combs will be of gold, and their sweat will smell like musk. The aloes-wood will be used in their centers. Their wives will be houris. All of them will look alike and will resemble their father Adam (in statute), sixty cubits tall."

Is 60 cubits a metaphor? Allah has repeatedly revealed that some things in heaven are very large. I view these as metaphors to explain their grandness. We are Allah's greatest creations, higher than the jinn, animals or angels and thus when we are describes as gians, Allah is metaphorically asserting our superiority. Also when it is mentioned that the subsequent generations of humans would be smaller is stature, could it be interpreted that we are not as pious or as great as the sahaba and are smaller in stature. Allah did say that we would grow corrupt near the end of times and this decrease in stature might pertain toa spiritual decrease.

Is this interpretation right? Or the literal one which is expounded on by this scientific article?

TEL AVIV, ISRAEL - At the recent Israeli colloquium on science and religion, Dr. Shlomi Lesser of Hebrew University, and the Chairman of the Hofesh V'Mada Society (a stalwart for deeply skeptical Israeli scientists), led a heated debate between biologists and ultra-orthodox Rabbis on the origins of life. Many of the spectators, including those of a deeply religious stance, came away with the feeling that the Rabbis had not done very well against their "Epicurean" counterparts.

The hi-light of the evening came when Dr. Lesser engaged in a one-on-one question exchange with Rabbi Dovid Brown of Yeshiva University. At one point Dr. Lesser asked R. Brown how tall the first man was, to which the esteemed Rabbi replied "he was roughly the size of an average man according to chazal [Jewish sages]." From there Dr. Lesser revealed that genetic research has revealed that the human race coming from a single pair of parents is impossible in light of the biological bottle-neck [a term for the strain put on successive generations by inbreeding] they would have to travel through.

"Our research, in conjunction with the research of other respected institutions around the world, has demonstrated that the entire human population descending from a single pair of human ancestors is highly unlikely." stated Dr. Lesser. "It would seem that the traditional view of groups, not individuals, evolving has been corroborated; the only way man could descend from a single pair (rather than from an entire group of transitional hominids) is if the original pair were literally giants in the pre-nutrition age."

As Dr. Lesser pointed out, prior to the breakthroughs in nutrition that took place in the 17th and 18th centuries, genetic evidence revealed that man would have been shrinking if he came from a single human ancestor. His calculations revealed that in order for the human race to reach the state it was in during the 17th century, the "Adam and Eve" story would only be plausible if the first man was 90 feet tall (which is fantastic to say the least). "There is no other way man could traverse the genetic bottleneck" Dr. Lesser again said. "If Adam was the size of any other man according to the learned Rabbis of the Jewish religion, this demonstrates an obvious absurdity to this myth."




What do YOU guys think?
 
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No much to comment on really, other than that if mankind did come from a single pair it seems muslims might be right and the Jews wrong about how tall they were.

Beyond that it comes down to which you think is the most likely, that that first pair were '60 cubits' tall or that the 'traditional' view of groups evolving is correct. My money is on the second as being infinitely more credible, but then I'm not a creationist. I really do get the impression that what was being talked about here was a fanciful thought experiment, not a remotely serious suggestion.
 
:sl:
Given this excerpt:

..His calculations revealed that in order for the human race to reach the state it was in during the 17th century, the "Adam and Eve" story would only be plausible if the first man was 90 feet tall (which is fantastic to say the least). "There is no other way man could traverse the genetic bottleneck" Dr. Lesser again said. "If Adam was the size of any other man according to the learned Rabbis of the Jewish religion, this demonstrates an obvious absurdity to this myth."
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I would say that it must be true; Adam must have been 60 Cubit in size.

Is there a quranic ayat relating to Adam's size? If so could someone post it and I'll look them up in the 3 translations that I have at home to see what the scholar's interpretations are.
 
:salamext:


I think the general rule is that we don't make ta'wil (turning away from the apparent meaning) of the texts, unless it is part of the arabic language or there is other proof from Divine revelation to support another interpretation.


So if one was to say that Adam is 60 cubits tall, then if it is said in the arabic language that '60 cubits' is used to imply 'really big' or its likes, then that may have some basis. However, this arabic phrase can't be something new - but rather, that language (or phrase) should have been used during the life of Allah's Messenger amongst the arabs.

Or, on the other hand - if there is other evidence from the Qur'an or Sunnah to explain that 60 cubits never really meant 60 cubits literally, or there is other evidence to clarify the description further - then we can use that as evidence to come to a conclusion.



However, we cannot merely come up with an opinion without the rules of the above. Since many have done this (i.e. the Philosopher sects like Al-Mu'tazilah, Ashaa'irah etc) for the Qur'an & Sunnah in history, and turned away from the true principles of Islam, such as on the Attributes of Allah, and many other matters which may even render people out of the fold of Islam.

Therefore, it may be true that Adam was 60 cubits tall, unless there is clear, truthful evidence otherwise. And even if we cannot fully understand this description, it does not deny its reality.



And Allah knows best.
 
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:salamext:


It's mentioned in Tafsir Ibn Kathir, in Surah Al Baqarah's tafsir;


Adam was very Tall

http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=1684

Ibn Abi Hatim narrated that Ubayy bin Ka`b said that the Messenger of Allah said,


«إِنَّ اللهَ خَلَقَ آدَمَ رَجُلًا طُوَالًا كَثِيرَ شَعْرِ الرَّأْسِ كَأَنَّهُ نَخْلَةٌ سَحُوقٌ، فَلَمَّا ذَاقَ الشَّجَرَةَ سَقَطَ عَنْهُ لِبَاسُهُ فَأَوَّلُ مَا بَدَا مِنْهُ عَوْرَتُهُ، فَلَمَّا نَظَرَ إلى عَوْرتِه جَعَلَ يَشْتَدُّ فِي الْجَنَّةِ فَأَخَذَتْ شَعْرَهُ شَجَرَةٌ فَنَازَعَهَا، فَنَادَاهُ الرَّحْمنُ: يَا آدَمُ مِنِّي تَفِرُّ؟ فَلَمَّا سَمِعَ كَلامَ الرَّحْمنِ قَالَ: يَا رَبِّ لَا ولَكِنِ اسْتِحْيَاء»
​


(Allah created Adam tall, with thick hair, just as a date tree with full branches. When Adam ate from the forbidden tree, his cover fell off, and the first thing that appeared was his private area. When he saw his private area, he ran away in Paradise and his hair got caught in a tree. He tried to free himself and Ar-Rahman called him, 'O Adam! Are you running away from Me' When Adam heard the words of Ar-Rahman (Allah), he said, 'No, O my Lord! But I am shy.')


​
 
Firstly:

This hadeeth was narrated by Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) who said:

“Allaah created Adam and he was sixty cubits tall. Then He said, ‘Go and greet those angels and listen to how they greet you, for that will be your greeting and the greeting of your progeny.’ He said, ‘Al-salaamu ‘alaykum (Peace be upon you).’ They said, ‘Al-salaamu ‘alaykum wa rahmat-Allaah (Peace be upon you and the mercy of Allaah).’ So they added the words ‘wa rahmat Allaah.’ And everyone who enters Paradise will be in the form of Adam. People kept on growing smaller until now.”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3336; Muslim, 7092

According to a version narrated by Muslim: “Everyone who enters Paradise will be in the form of Adam who was sixty cubits tall. People kept growing smaller until now.”

With regard to the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), “People kept growing smaller until now,” al-Haafiz ibn Hajar said in Fath al-Baari (6/367): “This means that in every generation people grew shorter than the previous generation, and continued to grow shorter until the time of this ummah, then they stayed like that.”

The Muslim is obliged to believe in every idea for which there is evidence in the Qur’aan or saheeh Sunnah from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Imam al-Shaafa’i (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “I believe in Allaah and in that which came from Allaah in the sense meant by Allaah. I believe in the Messenger of Allaah and in what came from the Messenger of Allaah in the sense meant by the Messenger of Allaah.” See al-Irshaad Sharh Lam’at al-I’tiqaad, p. 89.

So the believer is required to believe with firm faith in everything that we are told by Allaah and by the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), if it is proven to be soundly reported from him (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He must believe in it with firm faith that leaves no room for the slightest doubt. He must accept it in general and specific terms, whether he understands it or not and whether he finds it strange or not, because not understanding something that is proven in a sound report does not mean that it did not happen. All that means is that he cannot comprehend this particular issue. Allaah has commanded us to believe in everything that He tells us and everything that His Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) tells us. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Only those are the believers who have believed in Allaah and His Messenger, and afterward doubt not but strive with their wealth and their lives for the Cause of Allaah. Those! They are the truthful”

[al-Hujuraat 49:15]

Part of faith is belief in the unseen (al-ghayb). The hadeeth we are discussing here comes under this heading. Allaah praises those who believe in the unseen, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Alif-Laam-Meem. [These letters are one of the miracles of the Qur’aan and none but Allaah (Alone) knows their meanings.]

This is the Book (the Qur’aan), whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who are Al-Muttaqoon [the pious believers of Islamic Monotheism who fear Allaah much (abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which He has forbidden) and love Allaah much (perform all kinds of good deeds which He has ordained)].

Who believe in the Ghayb[the unseen]”

[al-Baqarah 2:1-3]

You should note that Allaah is Able to do all things. Just as He is able to create man in the form that he appears in now, He is also Able to create man in a larger or smaller form.

If this is difficult for you to understand, then think of the dwarves that we see, who are child-sized men. If this can happen, then why could the opposite not happen, namely a man being sixty cubits tall? In the history of mankind there have been giants as the archaeologists tell us.

The basic principle here is to accept the absolute power of Allaah and to accept what He tells us and what His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) tell us, and to say what those who are well versed in knowledge say:

“We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord”

[Aal ‘Imraan 3:7 – interpretation of the meaning].

We ask Allaah to show us the truth as true and help us to follow it, and to show us falsehood as false and help us to avoid it.

And Allaah knows best.


Islam Q&A
http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref=20612&ln=eng
 
So Noah would have been about 70 foot tall, which stuffed into his 450 ft Ark with his 65 ft tall wife and possibly his 69 ft tall sons, with over 70 million animals in christian tradition must have been a heck of a sight.
 
barney said:
So Noah would have been about 70 foot tall, which stuffed into his 450 ft Ark with his 65 ft tall wife and possibly his 69 ft tall sons, with over 70 million animals in christian tradition must have been a heck of a sight.
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Do you know the time difference between Noah and Adam? also, try studying bottleneck effect while your at it.
 
varies with period and time, I took the lowest measurement of 1.5 foot, 18inch.

Ohh! BTW, just popped into my head. With hands aproximatly eight feet accross, when adam ate the apple isnt that a bit like a modern day person eating a single grain of sand? Or have trees shrunk too?

And his fig-leaf loincloth? Thats not going to be practical wear if your hips are the size of a canal.

Would a cheeseburger have been a quarterpounder or a 400 pounder? Thats a whole cow in one bite?
 
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The fruit was in paradise and all humans will be the size of Adam went they enter paradise, so presumably the fruit was larger than earthly fruit also.
 
barney said:
varies with period and time, I took the lowest measurement of 1.5 foot, 18inch.

Ohh! BTW, just popped into my head. With hands aproximatly eight feet accross, when adam ate the apple isnt that a bit like a modern day person eating a single grain of sand? Or have trees shrunk too?

And his fig-leaf loincloth? Thats not going to be practical wear if your hips are the size of a canal.

Would a cheeseburger have been a quarterpounder or a 400 pounder? Thats a whole cow in one bite?
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lol barney i think creation may have shrunk too, ie maybe tree's dont grow as larger and taller as they use to. Fig leafs may not be as big as they use to be, cheeseburgers didnt exist and im sure the cows were bigger too :p


thanks for the laugh ;D
 
:salamext:

^ 27.43200 meters = 90 feet

P.S. Google is there for a reason, make use of it :D
 
IbnAbdulHakim said:
lol barney i think creation may have shrunk too, ie maybe tree's dont grow as larger and taller as they use to. Fig leafs may not be as big as they use to be, cheeseburgers didnt exist and im sure the cows were bigger too :p
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I thought Paradise was the Eden area? Within a stones throw of the Euphrates or similar? Or is that just in the bible?

I was out the back garden the other night Imagining just how big a 90 foot guy would be, its pretty impressive.
His Fists would be the size of my car, his head the size of a fully grown elephant, his teeth like keyboards...ROCK!
Then I was imagining the world he lived in. Trees like skyscrapers, Cats the size of killer whales. its amazing that 6000 years ago the earth must have been awesome!
 
In Islam, there isn't any mention of Adam being present 6000years ago, although it may say this in the Bible - it isn't mentioned in our texts. Therefore it may have been much longer than this since his time.

And in regard to the garden of Eden, no - that was in the heavens above - which are part of the unseen. This is why Adam and Hawwa [Eve] - came to the earth after the trial they faced, when Allah forgave them.


And Allah knows best.
 
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